[Lord Speaker] First oral question, Baroness Pitkeathley.
[Baroness Pitkeathley] My Lords, I beg leave to ask the question
standing in my name on the order paper.
[Lord Callanan] My Lords, we recognise the important contribution of carers
across the country, who give their time to look after others.
The government is determined to do all it can to support those balancing work and caring
and legislation to deliver our commitment to introduce
one week of unpaid leave for unpaid carers,
will be brought forward when parliamentary time allows.
[Baroness Pitkeathley] I thank the minister for his response,
but he will not be surprised to know that I am somewhat disappointed.
It is now almost three years since the Conservative Party manifesto
pledged to give carers five days' unpaid leave per year,
a modest enough request I think your Lordships will agree.
It was seen as a very important component of helping carers deliver social care
while staying in paid work.
It's very much supported by employers,
who see it as helping their bottom line because it helps with recruitment and retention
and 90% of the public think it's a good idea.
So here's a policy which costs nothing,
it supports social care and it's hugely popular.
Why is the government delaying?
[Lords] Hear! Hear!
[Lord Callanan] Well, I said that we are committed to this and we will
of course act when parliamentary time allows.
But I mean, to be fair though, if employers are supportive, of course
they can do it anyway they don't need legislation to do that.
And we give the noble Lady an assurance that we will work with parliamentarians
to see if there is an alternative vehicle that could deliver this legislation.
[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff] My Lords, does the government recognise that it's a
good investment to allow people unpaid leave when they're under enormous pressure?
And without doing that you end up having people with mental health disorders
and an ongoing cost to society in the future through sick leave and so on.
And I hope that the government will recognise that and when it comes to
those eligible for SR1 benefits, that they will make it a one month unpaid leave.
[Lord Callanan] We certainly recognise the value of carers
and indeed they have a substantial package of support.
And as I said, we are committed to this policy and we are committed to legislating on it.
[Baroness Tyler of Enfield] My Lords, research has shown
that the average person has a 50/50 chance of caring
by the age of 50, i.e. a long time before they reach retirement age.
However, on average women can expect to take on caring responsibilities
over a decade earlier than men.
So could the minister explain what assessment the government has made of the impact
of not legislating to introduce carers leave,
on women in particular and what plans they have to publish this assessment?
[Lord Callanan] Well, the noble Lady is certainly right and of course we do know that
many carers experience considerable challenges,
balancing work with their caring responsibilities,
which is indeed why we consulted on the policy in the first place.
[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall] My Lords, how much time
would the minister estimate how much parliamentary--
[Baroness Altmann] Would my noble friend recognise
that there is a significant labour shortage
and part of the problem has been the great retirement or great resignation?
A number of older workers have withdrawn from the labour market during the pandemic,
partly because of the problems experienced in care homes.
With an ageing population and increasing numbers of people
who are going to need to look after older relatives,
would the government consider leave along the lines of maternity leave,
for those in later life who need to just organise some care for loved ones,
rather than leaving the workforce and never returning?
[Lord Callanan] Well of course we want to see people supported in the workforce
as much as possible, which is why we of course, introduced
a right to request flexible working and many employers
have been able to work with their employees to do just that.
But my noble friend makes an important point.
[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall] My Lords, I think the noble Lord minister
probably knows what I am going to ask him, but I'll have another go.
How much parliamentary time does he estimate it would take
to put this very modest measure through?
And is parliamentary time in such short supply that it can't be found?
[Lords] Hear! Hear! Good point.
[Lord Callanan] Well, I suppose the answer to the noble Lady's question is
how much time Parliament chooses to spend on particular legislation.
Obviously we were committed to an employment bill
and the Queen's Speech set out a packed, ambitious legislative programme
with a comprehensive set of bills,
which enable us to deliver on priorities like growing the economy, etc.
and I'm sure your Lordships will spend a large amount of time on studying those bills.
As I said, we are committed to this legislation.
As I said to Baroness Pitkeathley
we will look for alternative vehicles and we'll work with parliamentarians
to try and deliver what is a manifesto commitment.
[Baroness Watkins of Tavistock] My Lords, can the noble Lord the minister
explain whether the government has considered how many carers
might be able to return to work,
if this provision were available to them
and whether secondary legislation could be used to introduce this simple measure?
[Lord Callanan] No, my understanding is that it would be primary legislation.
[Baroness Chapman of Darlington] My Lords, it would not take very much
parliamentary time, it could be done as a handout bill
to a keen backbencher in the other place,
so I don't think the government needs to worry too much about that.
But when it is introduced will he make sure that measures in it
include people caring for those who are suffering from a terminal illness?
[Lord Callanan] The noble Lady makes an important point and of course,
as I said, we will look for alternative vehicles to deliver this policy.
The details we will, of course, look at any proposals in potential legislation.
[Lord Jones] My Lords, further to the deeply committed remarks of
noble Baroness Pitkeathley how can we, as a nation,
more generously and more widely, acknowledge the magnificent contribution of carers,
perhaps more than one and a half million in Britain?
Isn't it a great army that is low paid
and yet which works so hard every day?
Isn't the caring in a home very demanding
and forever demanding of skill and application?
Why not institute some form of national awards,
perhaps decided by the centre, but awards which encourage
and help the carer to give even more for those who need?
[Lords] Hear! Hear!
[Lord Callanan] The Noble Lord is absolutely right.
That's certainly a good suggestion and I'll certainly take it back
to the department to have a closer look at
and that would seem like a good idea.
But I'd remind the House that we do have a substantial programme of support in place,
even only recently in the crisis for carers and others.
Low-income households benefit
from a means-tested benefit cost of living payment of £650.
Those living in the same household as a disabled person
for whom they care get £150.
Families with pensioner in the household benefit
again pensioner cost of living payment of £300.
And that's just within the latest package of support offered by the Chancellor.
So of course there's always other things that we can look at,
but we are fulfilling our responsibilities to the caring community.
[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean] My Lords, if you can spend a whole day
on 5 July discussing our sitting hours,
couldn't we spend that day bringing forward a bill
which could complete all its stages instead?
[Lords] Hear! hear!
[Lord Callanan] I think the business managers would point out
it probably takes a lot more than a day to deliver important legislation such as this.
And going through the proper, appropriate scrutiny procedures.
And I think my noble friend has been critical of me in the past,
when we've thought to bring forward emergency legislation
without the appropriate scrutiny.
[Baroness Garden of Frognal] Time is really the problem,
might I suggest to the noble Lord, that we scrap the rest of the Schools Bill,
which is being trashed from all sides, not least from his own benches,
which would give us at least another two and a half days
of time in which to debate this important measure.
[Lords] Hear! Hear!
[Lord Callanan] The noble Lady is asking me questions that are way above my pay grade.
[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath] My Lords, there's also a Northern Ireland Bill,
which the government might reconsider.
But my Lords, I wanted to ask a serious question.
It is well known and researched that carers in general, suffer
from worse mental health issues than a comparative population.
Will his department discuss with the Department of Health and Care
more programmes to support carers on mental health issues,
which will have a positive impact on the world of work as well?
[Lord Callanan] On the first comment of the noble Lord,
I am sure the Opposition have got a long list of government bills
they would rather drop in favour of this one.
Let's take it as read that we could agree on that or you could agree on that.
I think the noble Lord makes a sensible suggestion and I'll certainly take that back.
[Lord Hendy] If I could invite... I'm so sorry.
[Baroness Butler-Sloss] My Lords, would the noble Lord the minister
take this back to the department
and say how strongly the House of Lords feels about it?
[Lords] Hear! Hear!
[Lord Callanan] Yes, of course.
[Lord Hendy] If I could invite the noble Min...
[Lord Young of Cookham] My Lords, in response to an earlier question,
my noble friend said that employers were of course,
free to grant one week's unpaid leave already.
Is it the case that government departments do this?
[Lord Callanan] That is a good question, to which I'm afraid I don't know the answer.
I will get back to my noble friend on that.
[Lord Hendy] Could I invite the noble minister to consider
within his department, whether this change couldn't be brought about
by a tweaking of the working time regulations, which is secondary legislation?
[Lord Callanan] Well no, in response to an earlier question,
my understanding is that this needs primary legislation, but I will certainly check that.
But I don't think the noble Lord is correct.