David Pakman: Rachel Tabachnick is a researcher, writer, and speaker on issues pertaining to
the impact of the religious right on policy and politics.
Great to speak with you, Rachel.
Rachel Tabachnick: Thank you.
David: So let’s start at the beginning here.
Tell me a little bit about NAR.
What do those letters stand for, and what is this movement?
Tabachnick: New Apostolic Reformation.
This is a movement that’s really growing in the religious right.
It’s led by self-pronounced “apostles” and “prophets”, and is dramatically changing
both the structure of many churches that form what we would call the larger religious right
or Evangelical right, and also much of the ideology of these churches and ministries.
The major factor about this movement is that they believe that they have to take dominion
over government and society before Jesus can return, which is a very different idea than
has been popular in American fundamentalism for many generations, where it was believed
that the true believers would be taken from the Earth before the End of Time and before
Jesus’s return.
David: Right, so that latter part would kind of be like this “Rapture” idea, right?
Tabachnick: Yes, exactly.
David: Which is at a certain point, there will be a selection made, so to speak, and
some people will be able to live for eternity, presumably, in Heaven, and then everybody
else will perish?
Is that roughly accurate?
Tabachnick: That’s roughly accurate.
And of course, in that scenario, all of the really terrible End-Time wars and so forth
take place after the believers have been raptured to Heaven.
David: Of course.
Tabachnick: This scenario is quite different.
In this scenario, the believers are still on Earth as these things are happening.
So I think this is part of what’s adding to what we could say the End Times hysteria
that we are seeing in parts of society.
So the believers will be left on the Earth in order to fight evil and to fight the Antichrist
themselves.
So part of this change with the New Apostolic Reformation is the idea that these believers
must take control over society and government themselves before Jesus can return.
And this is encapsulated in a… in a concept called the Seven Mountains.
So the idea is that these believers must take over arts, business, education, family, government,
media, and religion.
David: And before I get to the Rick Perry connection to all of this, I kind of have
a kind of a more historical question for you, which is how far back can we identify these
kind of End-Time prophecies in history?
I mean, we certainly know that for at least a couple of thousand years we’ve experienced
them, but do these date really far back?
I mean, can we find evidence of the End-Time prophecies much further back in human existence?
Tabachnick: Well, we certainly find Christian End-Times prophecy dating back many hundreds
of years as part of the Crusades and other historical events.
Now, in terms of American, specifically American fundamentalist End-Time ideas, there’s a
narrative that dates back about 150 years, the narrative that we were discussing about
the believers being raptured before the end.
David: Right.
Tabachnick: Now, the shift that we’re talking about, a dramatic shift, in American End-Times
theology has taken place let’s say over about the last 30 to 40 years, and I would
say accelerating rapidly in the last 10 to 15 years, to what we call Dominionism, or
this belief that these…
this particular brand of Christianity must take control over society and government,
that is Dominionism.
David: And tell us about the Rick Perry connection to all of this.
Tabachnick: Well, this became news after Rick Perry’s August 6 prayer event in Houston,
Texas called “The Response”.
And the reason that it did is that a large number of these apostles and prophets, national
and international leaders in the movement, were part of the event, others were there
that were not visible on-camera, and the event was organized by two major New Apostolic organizations,
one called The Call, headed by a prophet, Lou Engle, and the other the International
House of Prayer, led by Mike Bickle, who also led a substantial part of that prayer event.
David: So IHOP, in other words, we could say.
Tabachnick: IHOP, yes, the other IHOP.
David: Yeah.
Yeah.
Tabachnick: And there are International House of Prayers now popping up around the globe
and in cities across America.
David: So it’s a chain, so to speak?
Tabachnick: Yes, yes, in some ways, it is.
They’re interconnected, they livestream from the main IHOP in Kansas City, where The
Call is also based.
David: Incredible.
And so, Rick Perry has not really, other than, we covered that prayer event back when it
was going on, Rick Perry has not really made any of this, of his involvement in any of
this very clear during his kind of more mainstream presidential campaigns, has he?
Or is it there in ways that maybe just aren’t that clear to the average news viewer?
Tabachnick: Well, there are ways that might not be so clear.
For instance, an IHOP leader in Florida was chosen as part of Rick Perry’s campaign
there, and so forth.
And I think what has happened is that Rick Perry has been a spectacular failure as a
candidate at the national level in ways that were not anticipated by the movement, and
so I think that the support has not been as apparent because Rick Perry’s campaign has
not gone very far.
However, keep in mind that these same… a lot of the same organizations, a lot of the
same money behind Rick Perry’s event are behind what’s called United in Purpose Champion
the Vote, which has been holding Pastors’ Policy Briefings around the country for years.
And another regular feature in these policy briefings is Newt Gingrich.
So now we’ve seen Newt Gingrich sort of take a turn in sort of the Republican candidate
merry-go-round that’s been taking place, and perhaps some of the boost that Newt Gingrich
got came from the extensive exposure that he’s had through these Pastors’ Policy
Briefings which have been held in states across the nation, and particularly in Iowa, South
Carolina, and Florida over the last several years.
David: When you talk about the goal of taking over family and education and government,
etc., tell me a little bit about what are some of the methods?
I mean, does the takeover involve kind of a strategic, thought-out process?
Is it potentially a violent type of takeover of these areas?
I mean, how far does this movement potentially go?
Tabachnick: Well, let me stress that perhaps the major architect of the movement in the
United States, C. Peter Wagner, states that there does not have to be any type of violent
overthrow.
And in fact, he doesn’t like to use the word “theocratic”.
He says that this can be done inside of completely democratic means, just by the growth of the
movement and growth of popularity of the movement.
So in other words, he’s saying that if the movement becomes large enough and the outreach
is effective enough, then they can take this control just through democratic means and
taking over policy and the structure in these seven mountains.
David: Absolutely.
And do you expect that with any of the candidates who…
I mean, I would assume that Mitt Romney is not a part of this in any way, he has a completely
different religious background being a Mormon, but if Gingrich does end up being the nominee,
and correct me if I’m wrong on Romney, but if Gingrich ends up being the nominee, do
you expect we’ll see more allusions to this type of thought in the mainstream?
Tabachnick: Two questions there, first of all, you are not incorrect about Romney.
David: OK.
Tabachnick: Mormons are not considered to be Christians by this movement unless they
have actually been evangelized.
The movement has worked with some Mormon candidates, for instance in Hawaii, but these are people
who are considered to be evangelized to their form of belief.
David: Right.
Tabachnick: And on the other point, I think what we will see, let’s say if Gingrich
does become the candidate, I think we will see a lot of organizing, it may not be apparent
to the general public, but a lot of organizing and promotion of Gingrich through the existing
networks.
The New Apostolic Reformation has what they call Prayer Warrior Networks in all 50 states.
They’re much better-developed in some states than others, but if you look back at 2008
when Sarah Palin was named as the vice-presidential candidate and had close ties to the movement,
there was an enormous amount of networking and promotion of Palin that went on behind
the scenes throughout this 50-state network of the New Apostolic Reformation.
David: All right, well, there it is.
Rachel Tabachnick, researcher, writer, speaker, obviously incredible work you’re doing here
on the religious right and exposing this stuff, so thanks so much for joining us.
Great to talk to you.
Tabachnick: Thank you.
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