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>>> ALL WEEK WE’VE BEEN TALKING
TO ACCLAIMED WRITER AND
JOURNALIST TOM RICKS AND TAKING
A CLOSER LOOK AT THE IMPACT OF
THE FIRST FOUR PRESIDENTS.
"FIRST PRINCIPLES WHAT AMERICA’S
FOUNDERS LEARNED FROM THE GREEKS
AND ROMANS AND HOW THAT SHAPED
OUR COUNTRY."
THIS MORNING WE CLOSE WITH A
FOCUS ON JAMES MADISON.
TOM JOINS US ALONG WITH A
PROFESSOR AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY,
DANIELLE ALLEN.
DANIELLE IS A POLITICAL THEORIST
KNOWN FOR HER WORK ON JUSTICE
AND CITIZENSHIP IN ANCIENT
ATHENS AND MODERN AMERICA AND
AMONG THE MANY BOOKS SHE’S
WRITTEN IS HER 2014 WORK TITLED
"OUR DECLARATION: A READING OF
THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
IN DEFENSE OF EQUALITY."
THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING WITH
US.
TOM, LET ME START WITH YOU.
I CAN’T TALK ABOUT MADISON
WITHOUT GOING BACK TO GEORGE
WASHINGTON BECAUSE MADISON ALONG
WITH ALEXANDER HAMILTON WERE TWO
YOUNG, BRILLIANT RISING STARS
THAT GEORGE WASHINGTON AND HELPE
THEM HELP HIM CREATE THIS
REPUBLIC OF OURS.
TALK ABOUT WASHINGTON USING
MADISON AND HAMILTON TO GET THIS
COUNTRY MOVING.
>> WELL, ALSO I WOULD SAY
MADISON USING WASHINGTON.
IF GEORGE WASHINGTON GAVE US THE
COUNTRY BY LEADING THE
REVOLUTION, AND I DON’T THINK IT
MIGHT -- IT MIGHT NOT HAVE
SUCCEEDED WITHOUT HIM, JAMES
MADISON IS THE MOST IMPORTANT
PERSON I THINK IN THEN DESIGNING
THAT COUNTRY.
OKAY.
WASHINGTON HAS LED THE
REVOLUTION.
WHAT IS IT GOING TO BE?
FIRST YOU GET THIS ARTICLES OF
CONFEDERATION GOVERNMENT, A VERY
WEAK CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, THE
STATES WANDERING AROUND BY
THEMSELVES.
NOT UNLIKE THE LAST FOUR YEARS
UNDER TRUMP, ESPECIALLY WITH THE
VIRUS.
JAMES MADISON IS SUCH AN
EXTRAORDINARY FIGURE BECAUSE HE
DOESN’T APPEAR LIKE SOMEONE WHO
WOULD PLAY SUCH AN IMPORTANT
ROLE.
HE IS SMALL.
HE HAS A WEAK SPEAKING VOICE.
HE SUFFERS FROM SOME KIND OF
EPILEPSY.
HE’S NOT REAL SOCIAL.
YET HE HAS BRILLIANT POLITICAL
INSIGHTS, AND HE’S ALSO A VERY
GOOD POLITICIAN.
A SURPRISING COMBINATION.
HE’S THE GUY WHO SAYS, YOU KNOW,
WE REALLY NEED TO HAVE A
CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION.
HE READS UP THE FOUR YEARS ON
ANCIENT GREEK REPUBLICS AND CITY
STATES AND LEAGUES AND
CONFEDERATIONS TO LOOK FOR WHY
REPUBLICS SOMETIMES DON’T LAST.
HOW CAN WE MAKE A REPUBLIC THAT
LASTS, THAT IS SUSTAINABLE, THAT
DOESN’T FALL APART.
DANIELLE ACTUALLY IN HER
WONDERFUL BOOK "OUR DECLARATION"
HAS THE MOST STRIKING COMMENT
I’VE EVER SEEN ON MADISON.
SOMETIMES EARLY AMERICAN HISTORY
FEELS LIKE READING MADISON,
TALKING TO HIMSELF, DRAFTING A
LETTER OR SPEECH BY GEORGE
WASHINGTON.
SENDS IT TO CONGRESS.
MADISON THEN DRAFTS A
CONGRESSIONAL RESPONSE.
MADISON THEN DRAFTS WASHINGTON’S
RESPONSE TO CONGRESS.
>> YEAH, AND DANIELLE, TOM
TALKED ABOUT THAT IN THE BOOK.
AND AT THAT POINT, YOU LOOK AT
THIS MAN WHO, REALLY, WAS SO
RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FRAMING OF
THE CONSTITUTION.
AND THEN AGAIN, WRITING A LETTER
TO CONGRESS FOR WASHINGTON.
WRITING THE RESPONSE BACK.
AT THAT POINT, WHEN I WAS
READING TOM’S BOOK, I WAS
THINKING, MY GOSH, MAYBE IT IS
JAMES MADISON WHO IS THE
INDISPENSABLE PERSON OF THE
AMERICAN REVOLUTION.
EVEN MORE SO THAN GEORGE
WASHINGTON.
>> WELL, I THINK THEY ALL PLAY
INDISPENSABLE ROLES.
YOU CAN’T TAKE THEM APART.
I THINK THEY WERE A TEAM.
PRECISELY BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH
A DIFFERENT UNDERSTANDING OF
THEIR FUNCTIONS BUT THEY WORK SO
WELL TOGETHER.
SO WASHINGTON WAS, WITHOUT ANY
QUESTION, THE LEADER.
THE TEAM CAPTAIN AND ESTABLISHED
EXEMPLARY STANDARDS FOR
BEHAVIOR.
ONE OF MY FAVORITE BITS OF THE
STORY IS LETTERS HE WROTE TO
HAMILTON TRYING TO ENCOURAGE
HAMILTON OUT OF HIS
IMPETTUOUSNESS.
SO WASHINGTON WAS REALLY CLEAR
ON HOW PEOPLE NEEDED TO TREAT
EACH OTHER IF THEY WERE GOING TO
GOVERN DESPITE DIFFERENCES
EFFECTIVELY.
AND HE KNEW MADISON’S INTELLECT
WAS WHAT THEY NEEDED TO MAP OUT
A BROAD VISION.
I LIKE TO THROW IN JAMES WILSON,
TOO.
HE WAS MADISON’S EQUAL AND
REALLY UNDERRATED.
BUT NONETHELESS, THEY
UNDERSTOOD.
THEY NEEDED THAT EXAMPLE OF
CHARACTER.
THEY NEEDED THE FORCEFUL
COMPETITIVENESS OF A HAMILTON
ACTUALLY FOR VARIOUS PURPOSES
BUT ALSO THE BROAD VISION A
MADISON AND A WILSON PROVIDE.
>> WE HAVE JOHN HEILEMANN WITH
US.
HE HAS A QUESTION.
JOHN?
>> WHEN YOU THINK OF MADISON,
THERE’S MANY THINGS YOU CAN SAY,
BUT HIS PRESIDENCY IS -- THE
WORD THAT COMES TO MIND MOST
FREQUENTLY IS ALSO KIND OF A
RESTRAINT.
I’M CURIOUS IF YOU CAN TALK
ABOUT WHAT YOU THINK THE
MADISONIAN VIRTUE OF RESTRAINT
IN GOVERNMENT, WHAT LESSON THAT
HAS AS WE HEAD INTO THIS NEXT
PERIOD WITH PROBABLY DIVIDED
GOVERNMENT, WITH AN EXECUTIVE
THAT’S BECOME INCREDIBLY
POWERFUL OVER TIME.
JOE BIDEN IS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS
BOTH THE LEGISLATIVE AND
EXECUTIVE INCREDIBLY WELL, BUT
IS WALKING INTO AN INCREDIBLY
FRAUGHT TIME FOR THE COUNTRY AND
INCREDIBLY POLARIZED TIME FOR
THE COUNTRY.
JUST TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
THAT TEMPERAMENTAL POSTURE THAT
MADISON HAD AND WHAT YOU THINK
JOE BIDEN CAN LEARN FROM IT.
>> WELL, IT’S INTERESTING.
I KIND OF SHY AWAY FROM
MADISON’S PRESIDENCY BECAUSE A
LOT OF PEOPLE SEE IT AS A
FIZZLED PRESIDENCY.
IT JUST KIND OF BUMPS ALONG AND
NOT MUCH HAPPENS.
I THINK MADISON TOOK A DIM VIEW
OF HUMAN NATURE AND THOUGHT THAT
VARIETIES OF RESTRAINT WERE
IMPORTANT.
BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT RESTRAINT
WAS SIMPLY BALANCING
SELF-INTEREST AGAINST OTHER
SELF-INTEREST.
CHECKS AND BALANCES.
DON’T TRY TO RELY ON PUBLIC
SPIRITEDNESS.
TRY TO DISPERSE POWER SO BROADLY
THAT IF YOU’RE GOING TO MAKE ANY