THE ROOM FOR HOUSE JUDICIARY AND INTELLIGENCE
COMMITTEES, DEMOCRATIC
COMMITTEES, DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN ERIC SWALWELL OF
CALIFORNIA.
CALIFORNIA. GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THE SHOW.
CLAIRE McCASKILL HAS THE FIRST
QUESTION FOR YOU.
CLAIRE.
CLAIRE. >> ERIC, WELCOME, MY QUESTION TO
YOU --
YOU -- >> HI SENATOR.
>> -- IS YOU WERE IN THE ROOM
YESTERDAY, RIGHT, WHEN TAYLOR
TESTIFIED?
TESTIFIED? >> YES, I WAS.
>> HOW MANY REPUBLICANS WERE
THERE?
THERE? >> SO THERE WERE A LOT WHEN WE
STARTED.
STARTED. I COUNTED ABOUT 75 PEOPLE IN
THIS VERY SMALL ROOM, YOU KNOW,
ABOUT TWO-THIRDS OF THEM WERE
MEMBERS.
MEMBERS. NOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY AFTER
ALL OF THE COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE
PROCESS, AFTER ALL OF THE
ATTACKS ON THE CHAIRMAN, IT WAS
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, A TEN TO ONE
RATIO OF DEMOCRATS TO
REPUBLICANS.
REPUBLICANS. >> SO AT THE BEGINNING --
>> WE TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.
>> AT THE BEGINNING, HOW MANY
REPUBLICAN MEMBERS WERE IN THE
ROOM WHEN --
>> DOZENS, DOZENS.
>> AND WHEN HE GAVE HIS OPENING
STATEMENT, THEY WERE ALL THERE,
CORRECT?
CORRECT? >> YES.
>> YES. >> AND THEY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY
TO ASK ANY QUESTIONS THEY WANTED
TO ASK, CORRECT?
>> IT’S A GREAT QUESTION,
SENATOR, YES, THEY GET EQUAL
TIME, EQUAL AMOUNT OF STAFF,
EQUAL AMOUNT OF MEMBERS.
>> AND THE REASON IT’S IN THE
BASEMENT IS BECAUSE THAT’S WHERE
THE SKIFF IS.
WOULD YOU EXPLAIN TO EVERYONE
WHAT THE SKIFF IS AND WHY
EVERYONE IN CONGRESS TAKES
BRIEFINGS AND HAS HEARINGS IN
THE BASEMENT WHETHER THEY’RE
SENATORS OR MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE
BECAUSE OF WHERE THIS PARTICULAR
HEARING ROOM IS LOCATED?
>> YEAH, IT’S THREE FLOORS BELOW
THE CAPITAL, NO CAMERAS INSIDE,
NO PHONES ALLOWED INSIDE.
ANY CLASSIFIED NOTES STAY
INSIDE, CLASSIFIED CONVERSATIONS
STAY INSIDE.
STAY INSIDE. IT’S TO PROTECT THE INFORMATION,
AND IN THIS CASE THERE WAS NO
SPECIAL COUNSEL.
SPECIAL COUNSEL. THERE WAS NO SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL REFUSED TO
EVEN TAKE UP THIS CASE, SO WE
HAVE TO DO THIS IN A CLOSED
ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT
IF WITNESSES KNOW WHAT OTHER
WITNESSES WILL SAY, THEY WILL
TAILOR THEIR TESTIMONY AND COOK
UP ALIBIS AND WE HAVE REASON TO
BELIEVE THAT MAY BE GOING ON.
WE’RE TRYING TO PROTECT THAT
INFORMATION TO THE DEGREE THAT
WE CAN.
WE CAN. >> I THINK PEOPLE DON’T
UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A
BIPARTISAN EFFORT IN TERMS OF
THE REPUBLICANS BEING THERE,
HEARING EVERYTHING, AND
QUESTIONING WITNESSES, AND I
REALLY HOPE THAT THAT’S
EMPHASIZED BECAUSE THEIR ON
DEFENSE NOW IS PROCESS.
THAT’S ALL THEY’VE GOT, AND EVEN
THAT ARGUMENT IS SO
FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED.
FUNDAMENTALLY FLAWED. >> SENATOR, YOU’RE RIGHT, AND
THEY USE A LOT OF O’THEIR TIME I
THE BEGINNING OF EACH OF THESE
HEARINGS TO ATTACK THE PROCESS.
THEY HAVE ACCESS TO BE THERE,
BUT THEN YOU SEE THEM ALL GET UP
AND LEAVE AND YOU’RE SITTING
THERE WONDERING IF YOU’RE SO
INTERESTED IN THE PROCESS WHY
DON’T YOU PARTICIPATE AND LISTEN
FOR THESE TEN-HOUR SESSIONS.
MOST CASES MOST OF THE DEMOCRATS
STAY AND VERY FEW REPUBLICANS
STAY.
STAY. IF THEY DID STAY AND IF THEY
HEARD WHAT THESE WITNESSES ARE
SAYING, I HOPE THAT JUST LIKE I
THAT THEY WOULD BE MOVED AND
VERY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT IT
MEANS FOR OUR COUNTRY AND
CONSTITUTION.
CONSTITUTION. >> CONGRESSMAN, YESTERDAY WITH
THE REPUBLICANS IN ATTENDANCE IN
THE BASEMENT, DID YOU HEAR ANY
OF THEM ASK A QUESTION?
DID YOU HEAR ANY OF THE
QUESTIONS?
QUESTIONS? IF SO, WHAT KINDS OF QUESTIONS
DID THEY ASK?
>> COCKAMAMIE CONSPIRACY
QUESTIONS.
QUESTIONS. >> OF AMBASSADOR BILL TAYLOR?
>> YES.
>> YES. OR 2016 HILLARY SERVER, WHAT
ABOUT HER E-MAILS, THAT TYPE OF
NONSENSE.
NONSENSE. >> WOW.
>> WOW. >> HEY, CONGRESSMAN, DEVIN NUNES
CAME OUT AND GAVE AN INTERVIEW
AFTER THE HEARING AND SAID THAT
CONGRESSMAN RATCLIFFE, I BELIEVE
THE TERM HE USED DESTROYED THE
WITNESS AND ESTABLISHED THAT
THERE WAS NO QUID PRO QUO.
CAN YOU SHED ANY LIGHT ON THAT?
DID YOU SEE THAT?
>> THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.
IF YOU READ THE POST OPENING
STATEMENT, I THINK WHAT YOU SEE
IS, ONE, THAT THERE WAS, IN
FACT, A CONNECTION BETWEEN
HAVING A WHITE HOUSE MEETING AND
GETTING SECURITY ASSISTANCE ONLY
IF THE UKRAINIANS WOULD
INVESTIGATE THE BIDENS AND
INVESTIGATE AND EXONERATE RUSSIA
FOR THE 2016 ROLE, BUT ALSO THAT
YOU SAW TWO SHARP STRAIGHT
LINES, NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP TO
RUDY GIULIANI BECAUSE THE
DEFENSE, I THINK, HAS BEEN WELL,
THIS IS ROGUE RUDY.
NOW, YOU HAVE A SHARP STRAIGHT
LINE BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND
HIS LAWYER, AND THE PRESIDENT
AND AMBASSADOR SONDLAND WHO SAYS
IN THIS "WASHINGTON POST"
OPENING STATEMENT THAT WAS
LEAKED THAT THE PRESIDENT IS
SAYING TO CONNECT INVESTIGATIONS
TO AID.
TO AID. >> SO CONGRESSMAN, HOW DID YOU
ASSESS YOUR WITNESS YESTERDAY,
AMBASSADOR TAYLOR?
AMBASSADOR TAYLOR? HE OBVIOUSLY TOOK VERY DETAILED
NOTES, A CAREER DIPLOMAT, AN
EXPERIENCED DIPLOMAT WHO KNEW HE
NEEDED TO GET SOME OF THIS DOWN
IN WRITING.
IN WRITING. HE HAD DATES AND TIMES AND
EVERYTHING ELSE.
EVERYTHING ELSE. THE WHITE HOUSE CAME OUT
YESTERDAY AND REFERRED SORT OF
INDIRECTLY TO HIM AS A RADICAL
UNELECTED BUREAUCRAT.
UNELECTED BUREAUCRAT. HOW DID YOU ASSESS HIS
CREDIBILITY IN THE ROOM OVER
THOSE NINE AND A HALF HOURS?
>> WELL, I SAW THIS RADICAL
UNELECTED BUREAUCRAT WALK INTO A
ROOM OF ABOUT 75 PEOPLE, A VERY
SMALL ROOM, WITH A COMMANDING
COURAGEOUS PRESENCE TAKE A SEAT
AND FOR 40 MINUTES LAY OUT WHAT
HE SAW STARTING WITH HIS OWN
CREDENTIALS OF SERVING IN
VIETNAM AFTER WEST POINT IN THE
101st AIRBORNE DIVISION, WORKING
IN THE SENATE, WORKING FOR NATO,
WORKING AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT,
COMING OUT OF RETIREMENT TO TAKE
A JOB THAT HE DIDN’T NEED TO
TAKE TO SERVE HIS COUNTRY.
HE HAD UNIMPEACHABLE CREDIBILITY
AND A DETAILED RECALL OF THE
EFFERENTS THAT
EFFERENTS THAT EVENTS THAT HAD HAPPENED.
>> WE’VE BEEN DISCUSSING A LOT
THIS MORNING ABOUT THE REAL
WORLD CONSEQUENCES HERE, THAT
UKRAINIAN
UKRAINIAN UKRAINIAN’S LIVES WERE IN
JEOPARDY.
JEOPARDY. ED HE DISCUSSES AT LENGTH THE
NEED FOR UKRAINE TO BE AN
IMPORTANT AMERICAN ALLY, THE
THREAT THAT THEY FACE EVERY DAY
FROM RUSSIA, SO PARTICULARLY
WITH THAT, HOW STARK THIS IS,
THIS ISN’T ABOUT POLITICS.
THIS IS ABOUT REAL LIVES HERE,
REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES.
IS WHAT YOU HEARD YESTERDAY,
VERY SIMPLY, IS WHAT YOU HEARD
YESTERDAY AN IMPEACHABLE
OFFENSE?
OFFENSE? >> WE’RE GOING O’ITTO GIVE THE
PRESIDENT A FAIRER TRIAL THAN HE
DESERVES.
DESERVES. IF THIS WAS DONALD TRUMP
JUSTICE, HE WOULD BE IMPEACHED
BY NOW.
BY NOW. BUT IN AMERICA EVEN PEOPLE WHO
CONFESS TO CRIMES GET DUE
PROCESS.
PROCESS. IF YOU’RE AN AMERICAN AT HOME
WHO HAS BEEN JUST OUTRAGED BY
WHAT’S BEEN GOING ON WITH THE
SLAUGHTERS OF THE KURDS AND THE
GREEN LIGHT THAT THE PRESIDENT
HAS GIVEN THEM, YOU SHOULD BE
VERY CONCERNED THAT THIS
PRESIDENT WAS WITHHOLDING AID
THAT IS YOUR TAXPAYER DOLLARS
THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO HELP THE
UKRAINIANS AND WHILE THAT AID
HAS BEEN WITHHELD, EVERY SECOND
THAT GOES BY, THAT HAS LED TO
DEAD UKRAINIANS, AID THAT WOULD
HAVE HELPED THEM DEFEND
THEMSELVES AND AS YOU SAW IN
THAT "WASHINGTON POST" STATEMENT
FROM AMBASSADOR TAYLOR, 13,000
UKRAINIANS HAVE DIED.
THEY VERY MUCH COULD HAVE HAD
MORE LIVES SAVED IF THE AID HAD
COME THROUGH RATHER THAN BEEN
HELD OVER THE HEAD TO ONLY
BENEFIT DONALD TRUMP’S
RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN. >> CONGRESSMAN SWALWELL, I WANT
TO CLEAR ONE THING UP.
AMBASSADOR TAYLOR 40 MINUTES
READS HIS OPENING STATEMENT.
HE HAS IMPECCABLE CREDENTIALS AS
EVERYONE CLEARLY NOW KNOWS, AND
DURING THE QUESTION-AND-ANSWER
SESSION THAT ENSUED, AN UNNAMED
REPUBLICAN ACTUALLY ASKED
AMBASSADOR TAYLOR ABOUT HILLARY
CLINTON’S E-MAILS?
CLINTON’S E-MAILS? >> NO, YOU SAW THE LINE OF
QUESTIONING WAS ABOUT THIS
COCKAMAMIE THEORY THAT THE
UKRAINIANS WERE INVOLVED AND
INTERFERED IN THE 2016 ELECTION,
THIS SERVER THEORY THAT DONALD
TRUMP CONTINUES TO SPIN, THAT’S
THE THEME THAT WE’RE SEEING HERE
IS REALLY TO GO BACK AND LOOK
AT, YOU KNOW, 2016 JUST AS
DONALD TRUMP WANTS.
NO ONE -- NO MEMBER ON THEIR
SIDE, I THINK, HAS LET THE
GRAVITY OF THIS SING IN AND WHAT
IT MEANS FOR OUR NATIONAL
SECURITY AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR
OUR CONSTITUTION.
OUR CONSTITUTION. THAT’S WHAT’S SO FRUSTRATING.
THOSE WHO HAVE LOOKS OF DISGUST
ON THEIR FACE, WE WOULD REALLY
LIKE THEM TO START ASKING
QUESTIONS AND HAVE THE COURAGE
TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE CONCERNED
BECAUSE I KNOW THEY’RE
CONCERNED, AND THEY KNOW IT’S
NOT RIGHT.
NOT RIGHT. >> CONGRESSMAN, YOU’RE NOT GOING
TO CHANGE THE MIND OF DEVIN
NUNES OR SOME OF THE REPUBLICANS
WHO HAVE DECIDED IT’S THEIR LIFE
WORK TO PROTECT PRESIDENT TRUMP,
BUT DO YOU IN YOUR PRIVATE
CONVERSATIONS TALK TO ANY
REPUBLICAN MEMBERS WHO HAVE READ
THE SUMMARY OF THE PHONE CALL
WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES AND UKRAINE OR SEEN THE
WHISTLE-BLOWER REPORT OR NOW
HEARD THIS INCREDIBLE TESTIMONY
FOR AMBASSADOR TAYLOR AND HAVE
SAID TO YOU, BOY, THERE IS
SOMETHING HERE?
SOMETHING HERE? >> ONE MEMBER SAID TO ME HE’S
VERY CONCERNED AND HE WANTS US
TO NOT RUSH THIS, AND I TOOK
THAT TO HEART, BUT I TOLD HIM WE
WILL BE FAIR, BUT IF WE, YOU
KNOW, GO ON A PROTRACTED
INVESTIGATION HERE, DONALD TRUMP
IS JUST GOING TO, YOU KNOW, TRY
AND TIE US UP IN COURT, GIVE
HIMSELF MORAL EQUIVALENCE, AND
GIVE EVERYONE A NICKNAME AND
CONFUSE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, SO
WE WANT TO MOVE FAIRLY BUT ALSO
SWIFTLY.
SWIFTLY. >> SO CONGRESSMAN, I JUST WANT
TO CLARIFY SOMETHING YOU TOUCHED
ON EARLIER, A FEAR THAT THE
ADMINISTRATION MIGHT BE DOING
SOMETHING TO COORDINATE
TESTIMONY.
TESTIMONY. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
>> YEAH, SO WHAT WE HAVE SEEN --
AND I’M NOT GOING TO GO INTO
IT -- BUT WE HAVE SEEN EVIDENCE
THAT WITNESSES HAVE TALKED TO
OTHER WITNESSES, AND THE REASON
WE’RE HAVING THESE HEARINGS IN
THIS FASHION IS SO THAT WHEN
WITNESSES TESTIFY, THE
INFORMATION IS HELD CLOSELY.
IF THE INFORMATION IS GETTING
OUT IN THE PUBLIC, THEN THEY’RE
ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER AND TRY
AND GET THEIR STORIES, YOU KNOW,
TOGETHER AND ALIGNED, ESPECIALLY
IF THEY’RE NOT NECESSARILY
INNOCENT ACTORS IN THIS SCHEME.
ALL RIGHT, SO CONGRESSMAN ERIC
SWALWELL, WE HAVE A TRUMP TWEET.
IS IT APPLICABLE TO THIS?
>> THE PRESIDENT JUST TWEETED
ABOUT THE TAYLOR TESTIMONY.
HE’S QUOTING JOHN RATCLIFFE WHO
WILLIE SAID ALLEGEDLY DESTROYED
THE WITNESS YESTERDAY SAYING
THAT NEITHER HE, TAYLOR OR ANY
WITNESSES PROVIDED TESTIMONY
THAT UKRAINIANS WERE AWARE THE
MILITARY AID WAS BEING WITHHELD.
YOU CAN’T HAVE A QUID PRO QUO
WITH NO QUO, AND HE GOES ON TO
SAY WHERE IS THE WRIB,HISTLE-BLO
THE DO NOTHING CASE IS DEAD.
LET ME ASK YOU YOUR RESPONSE.
DOES THAT LINE UP WITH WHAT YOU
HEARD IN THE HEARING YESTERDAY?
>> NO, BECAUSE ACTUALLY AS "THE
WASHINGTON POST" STATEMENT
REPORTED AMBASSADOR SONDLAND
SAID THAT MEETING WITH GETTING
THE SECURITY ASSISTANCE AND THE
WHITE HOUSE MEETING IS DEPENDENT
ON INVESTIGATIONS AND LOOKING
BACK ON THE 2016 ELECTION.
HE SAID EVERYTHING IS ON THE
LINE.
LINE. IT’S NOT JUST THE SECURITY
ASSISTANCE.
ASSISTANCE. IT’S THE WHITE MOUSE MEETING
THAT THEY WERE SEEKING TO GET
AND ALSO THE UKRAINIANS, YOU
KNOW, ONCE CONGRESS PASSES AND
AUTHORIZES THIS AID, EVERY DAY
THAT GOES BY THAT THEY DON’T
HAVE IT, THEY DON’T HAVE THE
AID.
AID. NOW, YES, THEY DID LEARN ABOUT
IT, YOU KNOW, THAT THERE MAY
HAVE BEEN A HOLD LATER IN THE
SUMMER, BUT THERE WAS STILL A
PERIOD OF TIME WHERE THEY DIDN’T
GET IT, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY --
AND I THINK MY REPUBLICAN
COLLEAGUES DON’T WANT TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THIS -- THE AID CAME
THROUGH ON SEPTEMBER 11, THAT
WAS TWO DAYS AFTER THE
WHISTLE-BLOWER COMPLAINT BECAME
PUBLIC, SO THEY HAD NO CHOICE
BUT TO PUT THE AID THROUGH,
OTHERWISE IT WAS COMPLETELY OVEN
THAT THEY WERE RUNNING THIS QUID
PRO QUO SCHEME.
>> YEAH, CONGRESSMAN ERIC SQUA