[Thorpe] Welcome to Beyond the Data.
I'm Dr. Phoebe Thorpe, and here
with me today is Dr. Samuel Hanke
from Cincinnati Children's Hospital
and Charlie's Kids Foundation.
Thank you so much for joining us Sam.
[Hanke] Thank you for having me.
[Thorpe] Your story today
about your son Charlie is very powerful.
You told us about his death and how you have turned that tragedy
into an amazing way to prevent future deaths.
Can you tell me a little bit about that and your journey?
[Hanke] Yeah.
My wife Mora and I lost Charlie back in 2010.
He would have been eight and a half years old.
He was born a beautiful healthy baby boy.
He was actually the same weight and length as me seven pounds
in 11 ounces and 21 inches.
He was really perfect in every way, and we were amazed
at the first sight of him and celebrated life with him
and really started to settle in a routine as new parents.
He was her firstborn son.
Like all babies, Charlie was fussy and
and one night I offered to give my wife a break.
She was breastfeeding and needed some much needed rest,
and I told her I would hold him while she got some sleep.
And I finally got Charlie to settle,
and I sat down on the couch to watch some TV while holding him.
And I nodded off to sleep.
I wasn't trying to nod off to sleep,
but I nodded off to sleep.
And when I woke up Charlie was gone.
He was asleep on my chest
and life has never been the same since that.
[Thorpe] No, no it wouldn't be.
But you've done, you've gone beyond it.
You've turned that into a very powerful book.
Tell tell tell us about that book.
[Hanke] Well having something
like that happen is there's nothing you can ever get beyond
or over.
It's something we just moved forward,
and I can never understand why I was chosen and why my wife
and I were the ones that had to shoulder this tragedy,
but we were really amazed when we found
out that we weren't alone in this
and that there were almost 3,500 babies
that died every single year from very similar circumstances.
And we we knew we needed to do something
to prevent other families from having that same tragedy.
And my wife is a kindergarten teacher, and she came
up with the idea of using children's board books as a way
to deliver the important safe sleep messages
that we know can help reduce baby's risk of dying suddenly,
unexpectedly like Charlie.
And so I worked with a friend of mine who's a local pediatrician,
John Hutten who's the children's book author
and an illustrator Leah Bush,
and developed our own children's book called
"Sleep Baby Safe and Snug".
And the goal of that book was to provide the Safe Sleep Message
in a way that's relatable to families.
It's through pictures and easy-to-read text,
and it's something that families read
to their babies right before they put them to sleep
in the hope is that that repetitive messaging
and relatable messaging would actually change the way
that they put their baby to sleep.
And and that was the that was the spirit behind the
book's development.
[Thorpe] And I know the book has had some impact
which I must be very satisfying for you.
Yeah. [Hanke] I think that it is.
It makes me...
[Thorpe] It's in some some small measure satisfying.
[Hanke] Yeah.
[Thorpe] It something you can't replace.
[Hanke] It is.
It makes me proud as a dad.
Proud of my son Charlie to see the impact that he's had,
to know that we've distributed over two
and a half million copies of this book across the country
and have had studies that show
that it actually influences behavior.
We have studies that are seeing that it's associated
with less sleep related deaths when it's used as part
of statewide campaigns and, for me, that is so meaningful.
And it's it's what inspires me to keep doing this work.
[Thorpe] Yeah.
[Hanke] Knowing that there are families out there
that are celebrating birthdays that wouldn't be able
to celebrate birthdays, and that makes me proud as a father.
[Thorpe] Are other things that you would like to see done?
What else could we do to to prevent these deaths?
[Hanke] Yeah.
We're nowhere where we need to be.
The unfortunate reality that my wife
and I experienced is a reality that thousands
of families are experiencing every single year.
And I think there's two things that we need
to do, two big things.
There's not enough attention to this problem.
There's not enough attention to the fact that you
as a parent can do something about this problem.
That you can change the way that you put your baby to sleep,
and we know that there are safe recommendations
to put your baby alone on their back in their own crib.
And by doing that each and every time you go
to sleep your baby's going to be safer
and have a much greater chance of waking
up every single morning and every single nap.
But we also know that that message is hard.
It's hard to do that every single time,
and all the parents know that when exhaustion sets
in you'll do anything to try to get your baby to sleep.
And I think we have to do a better job
in supporting our families with that reality.
We need to give them solutions to those families that really,
really want to do what's right
which I think most of our families do.
And we, but we, have to help them
with realities of sleep exhaustion.
These recommendations, the babies don't sleep as deeply
and so we have to help them with soothing
and calming connecting them with other other parents
that are experiencing the same thing
at three o'clock in the morning.
I think as a society and as a field we haven't done
that well enough, and
and I don't think we'll see the consistent adoption
of these safe sleep practices
until we really focus on that area.
[Thorpe] Are there other areas of research
that we should focus on too?
[Hanke] Undoubtedly, we are struggling
with how we message this to families because the connection
between the behavior, which is an improved sleep,
and an outcome isn't always consistent.
The one of the things that personally I look back on
and for the reason why I can share my stories
that I don't feel like what I did was that exceptional.
There are thousands of fathers that fall asleep with their baby
on their chest, and their babies don't die, and as a result,
families don't really recognize the association with behavior
such as falling asleep with your baby on a couch
and a terrible outcome.
It doesn't happen every time.
Just like every time you don't wear your seat belt you don't
get an accident, but we need to make sure
that we are following those practices
for when those right circumstances.
[Thorpe] Yeah.
Yes. Your story is very powerful,
and your your book is too.
And I really appreciate the work that you've done.
Is there anything more that you would say to a family
that might be facing the same circumstances?
[Hanke] Yeah.
I think the first thing I would say is
"I'm sorry you've experienced the worst loss
that you could have experienced as a person.
It never goes away.
Your baby will never be forgotten.
You don't get over it.
You can just move forward.
But know that joy and happiness and pain can co-exist together
and find beauty and strengths and the little things
that happen every day.
And be a partner with other people across the community
that want to do something about these deaths.
Tell them your story.
Let people know that this happened to you
and that you can do something about it,
and keep that from happening."
[Thorpe] Sure.
If somebody wanted to know more about how to prevent the deaths
or how to find your book, how would they do that?
[Hanke] There's a lot of great resources out there.
The NICHD and AAP websites give a lot of the background
for what these stay sleep recommendations are and a lot
of really good materials that help families
from all different walks of life.
Our organization Charlie's Kids Foundation,
we primarily distribute this book, and we distribute it
in bulk to hospitals and other nonprofit organizations
or anyone that's committed
to delivering the safe sleep message.
And you can go to our website charlie'skids.org and find
that information as well.
You can go to a local health department.
That's something that for your own individual area we're really
trying to tackle this together, and sometimes having
that local information can be really helpful
in relating with your families.
[Thorpe] Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for what you're doing and for coming
and sharing it with us, and it's really really
quite inspirational.
Thank you.
[Hanke] Well thank you for that.
I appreciate it.
[Thorpe] Yeah.
And thank you for joining us for Beyond the Data.
We'll see you next month.
Thank you.