>> Narrator: Live, from Austin Texas it's the Cube.
Covering DockerCon 2017.
Brought to you by Docker
and support from it's ecosystem partners.
>> Hi, and welcome back to the Cube
SiliconAngle Media's production of DockerCon 2017.
I'm Stew Miniman, and joining me for the rap today
I have Jim Kobilus who's been my host for the whole day,
part of the Wikibon team.
Jim, it's been a long day.
Your first full day on the Cube,
you've been on many times.
>> It's been invigorating, I've learned so much.
This is an awesomely substantial show.
It's been wonderful.
We've had so many great guests, oh my gosh.
Ben Golub and everybody who came before.
Amazing material.
>> Stu: And my other guest for the wrap up is John Troyer
who's been on the program many times.
He sometimes guest host of the program
so Chief Reckoner at TechReckoning.
John, thanks for joining us.
>> Hey, thanks so much for having me, Stu.
>> Alright, so you know, we think right, guests
we had some really good guests.
It's easy for me at the end of the day
when you're like oh it's energy flag
oh let's have Ben Golub, the CEO of the company
that where Docker's gone,
and Jerry Chen who always brings energy,
part of the V mafia like yourself, John
so really interesting stuff.
I want to step back, let's talk about the keynote.
So I guess John, I'll start with you.
Something we've been talking the last year or so is
this Docker, Docker, Docker hype.
I felt like a little bit of a hype
was let out over the last year with the Docker data center,
Docker swarm type activity, some of the ecosystem
was a little frustrated with the direction
that Docker the company was going,
compared to where they wanted the open source part to do.
Lot of open source, lot of developer talk today.
What's your take on the announcements,
the ecosystem, opensource?
There's so many things, but let's get us started.
>> Sure.
Well I didn't quite know what to expect, Stu.
We hear about Docker going more enterprise,
they just made a big enterprise announcement,
so I thought we might come in here
and hear 45 minutes on digital transformation.
And the standard enterprise keynote
that you get at every other keynote.
And we did not get that this morning.
>> I've seen Michael Dell give that keynote in this building.
(laughs)
So, totally.
>> At least we didn't get that here
we've all heard that elsewhere.
>> Well, at every conference
for the last five years, I think.
Ten years.
So we talked about the ecosystem,
that was the first message this morning.
It was about growth of the ecosystem,
about growth of the partnership, growth of the projects
and so that was definitely playing to their strengths,
and then they went straight to the code.
This was a developer centered keynote,
they did live demos with real code.
And so they were really playing to the audience here
which I think is still predominately developers.
So they were signaling that hey,
they weren't going all enterprise.
Now, the announcements were also interesting.
But I think the signal from the keynote
was that we are still here,
we're all about developer experience,
we're about making things simple.
>> Yeah, I don't think there's too many shows
where you'd start off and they're like
oh, here's how you can build really large containers,
easier with this multi-part build
and filling all this Docker stuff.
It's not the suits, it's not the big customers.
Having said, does that mean you won't go
to tomorrow's keynote because Ben said
it's going to be all the enterprise stuff tomorrow.
>> I live for the enterprise stuff.
I'm really excited about tomorrow.
So hopefully, not too much digital transformation.
But I think what Docker has announced the last month,
not even talking about what happened today,
but the Docker packaging, the Docker data,
Docker enterprise edition versus consumer edition,
and then not consumer, community addition, sorry.
And then the tiers of the Docker,
Docker enterprise edition,
I think is really kind of brilliant.
Docker is at a real turning point
in its evolution right now.
And there was a lot of confusion around
what is Docker the project,
what is Docker the engine, what is Docker the company,
and I think with this kind of packaging,
and then with the announcements today,
I really think that they've just cleared up
a whole lot of confusion in the ecosystem.
>> Yeah, I mean coming in I think
I heard a lot of people who were really excited
that container D got open sourced.
We went to, all three of us went to
kubernetes event last night
that was over at the Google Fiber Space
a couple of blocks from here.
And it was oh, cool I get all the opensource
like Docker one, that stuff I need,
but not all that upper level stuff
and advanced things that Docker is building in to it
so there's opensource pieces.
That goes into the Moby project.
Docker's committing, doubling down on a lot of this.
We're going to take all these pieces.
We're going to work on them,
community's going to build it,
they can take that compostable view
of putting their solutions.
And Docker will package and have monetization
and things that they'll do there
but the partner ecosystem can do different things with that.
So what do you guys take on, let's just start
with the Moby project first,
some of these open source, the whole ecosystem.
Positive, you think it's good?
>> Yes, very much so.
So the maturation of the container ecosystem
is in the form of, what you see though the announcements,
one of which is customization.
So customize containers to the finest degree.
They've got that capability now with Moby, exactly.
It's all about containers everywhere.
Containerization of applications is now the dominant theme
in the developer community across all segments.
So I think Docker has done the right thing
which is doubling down on developers,
doubling down on the message and the tooling now
for both customization of containers
but also for portability
with the Linux kit announcement and so forth.
Containerization, micro services and so forth
across all segments.
One of the areas I focus on is artificial intelligence,
deep learning.
Containerization is coming to that in a big way as well.
A lot of it is to drive things like autonomous vehicles
and drones and whatnot.
But we're going to see containerization
come to every other segment of data science,
deep learning, machine learning and so forth.
It's not just the people at this show,
it's other developer communities
that are coming to containerization in a big way.
And Docker is becoming
a premier development tool then for them.
Or will be.
>> So Jim, Stu, I think even more tactically,
there was this confusion about Docker the engine,
Docker the container run time,
Docker the container specification.
Now as pulling that out with container D
and now with Linux kit,
you always had the thing where Red Hat would say
well we have open shift, it's like Docker
or it has a piece of Docker or it can work with Docker,
you have Cloud Foundry it's like Docker,
or has a Docker, or can work with Docker now.
And so everybody had to do this dance
by saying well, we use some of the technology there.
Now, very clean split, very different branding,
we use Linux kit, we use container D,
we use the Moby framework.
And that actually will help again,
look, the death of commercial success is confusion.
If a buyer does not understand how to get what you want
or what you're selling, he's never going to buy anything.
>> Yeah, I think we've seen the end of Docker's
well, batteries included but removable,
cause some confusion in the marketplace.
People are like well, but it's not easy,
that's kind of what's there,
I want to be able to choose the pieces up front.
We talked about with Brian Gracely earlier today,
what is the pinioned platform
because there's certain solutions.
Microsoft wants to build what they want.
And they've lots of options,
but when they want to build an upper level service,
they have the pieces underneath that they care about.
It's not like oh, okay wait.
I have to do this, then I have to uninstall this,
that was like in Linux all the time.
It's like up, I'm recompiling, I'm recompiling,
I have to add things in and remove them
it's like no, no, no.
I want it in box.
In the kernel.
And then I can choose and activate what I need.
>> My guess is that next year,
my prediction is that next year at DockerCon
Docker will double down on experience, developer experience.
There's not a enough of it yet, here.
I think that will be a core theme for them going forward
to continue to deepen their mind share in that community.
>> I actually, I'll take that and double it.
So, one of the reasons that, I think one of the factors,
that caused VMWare to come to prominence
was its operator experience and its simplicity.
VMWare HA high availability was a one check box.
VMWare distributed resource schedule
which moved virtual machines around,
one check box, right?
And so with Docker's focus on developer usability
and developer experience
with today's announcements of Linux kit,
that could actually be a huge, huge deal.
If in the future, the application development pipeline
greatly depends on building a just enough operating system
as we used to say back in the day of VMWare
with Jerry Chen.
>> Stu: Yeah, good 'ol juice.
>> Yeah, if that becomes the defining characteristic
of building cloud native apps,
and it is right?
The Docker file is the defining document of our time.
If that's the case,
and now they've taken it into the Linux distribution world,
which could have repercussions for the whole ecosystem,
that could be Docker's, you know, again,
their magic check box,
the developer experience of rolling out a custom stack
has just been the level has just been raised.
And Linux kit is not new to the world.
They just open sourced it today.
But it's what they're using to get out their Docker
for AWS and Docker for Google cloud.
And Docker on public clouds already uses it
so it's already in production today.
I'm super impressed.
>> And I think there was potential
that it could have caused more confusion
or upset in the ecosystem.
But we interviewed Red Hat, and Canonical today
and I'm not saying that jumped up and down and embraced
and said oh goody,
but it wasn't it was like okay, that's fine.
It's not there, because there's always got to be
that cooptive.
I mean Jim, you came most recently from IBM.
The company that I most associated with
that word co-opetition.
So, there's always, there's the swim lanes,
there's where you partner together
and there's where you sometimes bump heads as to strategy.
>> Yeah.
And I don't think people should be too alarmed,
I mean from a technical level, right
there's stuff that runs in containers,
there's stuff that runs underneath containers.
There's still a role for Ubuntu
and there's still a role for Red Hat
and there's still a role for CoreOS and Rancher.
I don't know enough, I don't have enough of a crystal ball
to say what we'll be talking about next year.
It could actually have a fairly large
dripple effect going out in our ecosystem.
>> John, you've also, you've dug into
with a couple of vendors here,
what about the storage space?
It's one we've been digging out of bed.
There's still the general consensus is,
we still have a little ways to go
on the maturity and it's the furthest behind.
Big surprise just like VMWare.
We spent over a decade doing that.
What's your take on storage?
Any other comments on just the broad ecosystem,
just what needs to work,
be worked on and improved over time.
>> I think storage is the next area
that needs to be worked on.
I think that's the next piece
that we see as still a little bit fragmented.
I've heard from many vendors here at the show
that even from Docker itself,
that the surprising thing is that
containers are not just for cloud native apps.
A lot of the enterprise journey,
and I imagine we're going to hear about that
in tomorrow's keynote,
starts with containerizing your big legacy apps.
>> Yeah, it's funny.
I made a comment at the Google cloud event
in San Francisco a month ago.
I'm like, hey when did lift and shift
all of a sudden become sexy?
(laughs)
It's of course nuanced on that,
and we've had a few interviews Jim,
where we've talked about look,
there's initiatives that we want to do
the cool app modernization and everything there
but in the meantime, it is not a bimodal world.
We're not going to leave our old stuff there
and let it slowly have Larry the engineer
keep an eye on it and sleep all the time.
The whole world kind of needs to move forward,
containers are part of the way
to give us the bridge to the future if you will.
>> Yeah, how do you containerize the legacy app
the mainframe app for example,
it's got a petabyte of data in its storage,
I mean you just got to work through the data,
I mean the deep data issues there, you know.
>> Yeah, you can run Docker on a mainframe.
I mean, I've done interviews on that.
You work with those people, Jim.
And it's one of those oh wait, okay, right.
So there's pieces that'll be updated
and people that are changed.
John, you and I have talked.
I remember early days of VMWare.
It was let me take that horrible 10 year old application
that's running on Windows NT which is going into life,
and my hardware's going to die,
let me shove it into VM
and leave it there for another five, ten years.
And it was like, please don't do that.
>> Sometimes the real world intrudes.
I think we are, part of this problem
does get smoothed over or confused
but we're talking about both on prem apps
and public cloud apps.
And that can get a little confusing
because the storage issues,
going back to storage, are a little different.
Right?
Especially in the public cloud,
you've got issues of data locality,
you've got issues of latency, even performance
and so you see a number of vendors who are approaching it.
It's very easy to connect the container
to some sort of persistent volume.
It is very hard to give something
that its performance and is backed up
and is, you know is going to be there.
People have spent, the storage industry
has spent decades on those problems.
I don't think we're there yet in terms
of the generic container that is floating
either in public cloud or on prem.
>> And they can handle the hybrid cloud,
hybrid data clouds of which there are a myriad
in terms of high public private zones
within a distributed data architecture
with varying degrees of velocity and variety.
Managing all that data in a containerized environments
with rich orchestration among them,
to replication and streaming and so forth.
>> You can do it, but it's not,
it's cutting edge right now.
>> Yeah, it's cutting edge.
>> So, John last question I have to ask you
is something near and dear to your heart.
When you talk about careers
and people that are doing,
there's a lot of people here,
people I used to see in the VMWare community
that learning all the cool new stuff.
Anything you see is Docker doing evangelism?
Program the influencer program type thing?
Are you seeing anything in the educational spaces
from career space, what can you share?
>> Sure, Docker is very rich in community
it's kind of been the engine of their growth.
They've long had a huge user group program,
they have a campus program,
they have a mentorship program,
and they also have the Docker captains.
The Docker captains started, oh I don't know,
a year, a year and a half ago
and is an advocacy program, I think there's 70 of them now,
they work very closely with them.
The come from all across the ecosystem
which is kind of interesting.
Everybody from Dehli MC
and many companies.
So that's pretty cool that these people,
it feels a lot like early days of VMWare,
these people have day jobs
but yet they spend their nights
and weekends hacking on Docker.
And Docker takes advantage of that,
I mean in the best sort of way.
They give them opportunities,
they give them platforms to speak,
they give them platforms to help others.
And I see that's in full force here.
They have a track here at the show,
so Dockers are leaning heavily on its community.
I even saw one person here, Stu
from from a mainline storage company
said you know what, my company's not here
but I am because I have to learn how to do this.
I think people who are here have
a good next phase of their career.
>> That's a smart.
A community advocacy program of that sort
is actually is even more important than an event like this
in terms of deepening the loyalty of the developers
to leverage providers and their growing stacks.
>> John: Docker the company is very small.
There's a very large community and a very small company.
>> Stu: Three hundred and some odd people.
>> They have to leverage those resources.
>> John: Exactly.
>> Well, Jim thanks for all your help co-hosting today,
John, really appreciate you coming in,
especially some of that community
ecosystem expertise that you bring.
By the way, John's going to be
co-hosting open stack summit with me.
Another one that will have lost (mumbles)
where that ecosystem community is
and where it's going in a couple of weeks
in my home state of Massachusetts in Boston.
So be sure to tune in tomorrow,
we've got a full day of coverage.
First guest is going to be Solomon Hykes
coming off the day two keynote.
We're going to talk a little bit more about enterprise.
We got a full lineup of guests.
So be sure to check out siliconangle.tv
for everything there.
So for Jim Kobielus, John Troyer
and myself Stu Miniman,
thank you for watching day one of the Cube's coverage
of DockerCon 2017.
(upbeat music)