Hello again you lovely people of The Social
I'm not in my room this week
Those kind people have gave me a set
because I'm interviewing
Juno Dawson right here on this couch
this is where her bum will be
So yeah let's get into this
Enjoy
The BBC have kindly gave me a set this week
instead of my bedroom
Look it's so lovely
Fancy
So I do a lot of gender based stuff here and obviously
you came out about 18 months ago now wasn't it?
Less I mean I had told a lot of friends and family
beforehand
I sort of got all my ducks in a row and it was a strange one
I had to sort of decide
is this something you want to do publicly
or do you want to take a couple of years off
and then kind of come back as Juno
like as a finished product
and I decided that was crazy
and so I was at an award ceremony last Autumn
and I was speaking to my dear friend Patrick Strudwick the journalist
and he was like well why don't we do an interview for Buzzfeed
and so I thought well actually as naff as it sounds
Buzzfeed is not naff
But the whole idea of me publicly coming out was ridiculous
but then I thought well at least then
I can just do it once and for the rest of
time if anybody's like what you're trans now?
I'll be like, here's the article enjoy!
I should've done that actually done a..
half an hour
yeah
I mean how do you find it because you were
in the public eye when you were writing previously
and you kind of had your YouTube channel vlogging
especially when you did your previous book
How do you feel when you see...
because for a lot of people they don't like their deadname or their previous name
being known but you didn't really have that option
Am I allowed to say shit?
I couldn't give two shits
I mean there were seven books with James on
that I'm really proud of, like really really
proud and one of the first questions that came up
is what do we do with those books?
And particularly 'This Book is Gay' has sold all around
the world you know I'm not going to try and erase
anything that I achieved
It's a really personal thing for me but I think it's a mistake
for anyone cis or trans to erase their past
because it's your past it's such a vital part of
your tapestry of what makes you you
and you know I'm very proud of the things I achieved when I was
called James
and I'm sure I'll continue to be proud of the things I do when I'm Juno
Stick of rock always been the same through the middle
OK yeah I like that yeah
Because I mean for me it's always been
one of those like yeah I've done lots of stuff
but I find that when I'm talking about myself previously
I've obviously changed
pronouns and name and everything now
but I still find it hard when people who do know my deadname
still sometimes occasionally slip out
but that's just personal to me and that's kind of what's really great
about transitioning is that it is your own personal
way of doing it
I mean I have had people telling me I'm doing it wrong
because there was a period I didn't start
Juno until this January and there was
that period between the Buzzfeed article in October
and January the first when everything became Juno
where people were like oh no you shouldn't still be using that name
you shouldn't be using that name
and I'm like please do not tell me what's right for me
and I won't tell you what's right for you
there's as many ways to be trans as there are trans people
Yeah completely and do you find that that came from
social media a lot
because there is quite a big social conversation going on
at the moment
A little bit I was asked many many times is it he or she
what do I refer to you as?
And I was like I've got better things to worry about to be honest
But I'm slightly more forgiving
my forgiveness scale is directly proportionate to how long you've known me
So like my mum will always be forgiven for getting it wrong
because she's known me since before I was born
Whereas if you are for example a make-up artist
who has just met me
this happened the other day, a make-up artist on a TV show met me
and said oh I've finished on his make-up
I'm like you've just put a face full of women's make-up
on my face and yet you just said that
Are you in some way blind or can you not see what you've just done?
And I'm not massively bothered but even I was like come on we just met
I'm called Juno and you've just put a lot of make-up on me
Is that the worst misgendering situation you've had or?
I think that was the one that really stood out because it was a make-up artist
So I think there was sort of like a day shortly after January
when I sort of thought right you really do
now have to kind of go for it and get in the hair extensions
which have now come out
But the extensions was a big thing because it looked
so female and so feminine that a) a lot of people
stopped misgendering me
but more to the point I think
everyone clocked that I think possibly that's a trans woman
but whatever it is
it's definitely trying to be a woman
And you know the intent was there
So people whether they've clocked the trans part or not
they can definitely see that I'm working towards woman
and they I would say 99% of people respect that
Do you feel that there is that pressure
for trans people in general
to suddenly go you know full presentation and think
I need to do everything I can to help pass
Do you think that's a problem with trans people
or the way that society for example with us trans women
looks at us and thinks we have to be picture perfect femininity
Because when I came out I instantly thought oh I've got to be all like this and that
and then as I went further along I'm just like whatever
I think it's definitely society's problem and I think
the goal for anyone cis or trans is to truly live
the way they want to
You know for example I feel when I had the hair extensions in
I felt almost too girly
I almost felt this isn't quite me
And one of my friends called an author called Laura Dockrill
She's Hollyoaks pretty and I think that's something to avoid no offense to the cast
of Hollyoaks
but it's quite you know that's the big hair, the tan, the false eyelashes
that's not really what I'm going for
I've always been a bit of a rock chick at heart
Yeah
Even before I knew it
And you mentioned the media there and that's something
I'm heavy passionate about is with the tipping point being what 2014/2015
you know we've got Laverne Cox on the cover of Time Magazine and
then trans issues just out of nowhere exploded into the press.
And as you say the press is pretty transphobic and pretty poor when it comes
to talking about us
How do you feel we've moved on if anything or are we moving backwards?
I think the difference is that we're now in the press
I mean it's so strange just this morning I was tweeting Caroline Cossey who obviously
massively came up
against it in the 80s and 90s and you know
I'm so grateful to those early pioneers:
the April Ashleys
Caroline Cossey
through to Paris Lee, you know
who took a lot of flack in the first part of the century as well
I mean thank god Paris is so eloquent
But now I think - we have to mention Miss Jenner
Miss Jenner, however you feel about her politics or her lifestyle
She was so famous that there is now not a single person - probably in the world - who
isn't aware of what a transgender person is
And for that - I guess we owe her a debt of gratitude
Yeah
And so now - I mean in the 90's it was called the post-Ellen moment
and I think truly now we are in the post-Caitlin moment
but the post-Caitlin moment does also encompass Laverne Cox, Harry Nerf and Joey Paige
Jamie Cayton!
Laith - and Aydian Dowling - and all those people
and so now it's almost like 'we're here!'
but they don't quite know what to do with us
But I think there is an effort
like the other night I was on Channel 4 News
talking about the EU Referendum
and for me that's a real step forward
A Trans woman on a news programme
not talking about being Trans
And yes some human rights stuff did come up - but that was because I steered the conversation
that way
because that's one of the reasons I want to stay in Europe
but I thought that was... seeing green shoes
I would say that's the stage we're at
We're seeing little green shoes in the media popping up
Yeah - I just still get really upset when you see
take newspapers for example
who decide how they want to report us
And especially with things like
we're still seeing a lot of people telling their coming out stories
do you feel that we need to move forward from that a bit?
You can never have too many of those 'coming out' stories - because
again - if yours is the one that just catches the eye of that person who's going through
the questioning process
or is just starting in the curiosity stage
then I think it's important because we aren't all 'catch all'
Some people will have seen my coming out story
some people will have seen yours
some people will have seen Fox Fisher's
some people will have seen Jack Monroe's
and it's just the one that you happen to find
Both of my coming out stories - both as a gay man and as a trans woman
were quite low key actually
they were quite low flying
Because I think the other danger
is that if you read enough stories about very depressed
very suicidal young people
coming out as LGBT
then there is almost an assumption
that this must be something that is fundamentally depressing or negative
Whereas actually - and I think Wayne does this very well at the website
areyoucomingout.com
I think is really celebrate the positive changes that happen in your life
once you are living more authentically
Yeah - I've read that actually
I did read your book and you were talking about
how people can find support groups
but if the support group is quite toxic and negative
then that almost breathes into yourself
And there are places on the internet to go for help
but if you end up in the wrong one
like I did when I started
and I had people telling me I was doing it wrong
'You're not girlie enough'
'You should be doing this - you should be doing that'
and it's like - looking back on that time now I really wish I could tell those people
to shove it
mm-hmm
But what you said there was really interesting
about finding yourself and coming out
Do people that are questioning their gender
in any way, shape or form
What would you say to them? What advice would you give them?
Always hard
I get this all the time
Since This Book Is Gay came out
More than anything else I get letters about
'how can i come out?'
The problem is - there's just no one way to do it
What I always say - to particularly young people
is 'what support have you got?'
and 'are you safe?'
Because if in a choice between waiting a couple of years
until you're off at University
and being homeless at 14
maybe keep a lid on it!
Yeah!
Similarly, I told some friends when I was about 15
certainly about my sexuality anyway
but I knew I was with a group of friends that I was safe with
I really, truly had a gut feeling
and you know I think there's a lot to be said about gut feelings
And if your gut feeling is telling you
'now is not the time to come out'
then maybe listen to that
Very often we're like 'come out - what are you waiting for'
'come out, come out!'
It isn't always safe
or right
or appropriate
for people to come out
And the other thing that I always say to young people is
'you've got all the time in the world'
Transitioning at its heart is painfully slow
you've got time
so much time
So have patience and speak to other people
You'll speak to some people you disagree with
You'll speak to some people you agree with
Find your tribe - you know?
Because again - there is not one trans experience
and there's a million different ways to be trans
I'm very much at the beginning of making my own trans community
having left behind the gay community and working towards being a hetrosexual woman
which is a whole new ball game
How have you found that actually?
because like you say you were previously defining
as a gay male
I actually did that under the guise as an excuse just to wear make up
when I was looking like that
How have you found your views towards society
and even your writing
How do you think all that has changed since coming out and starting your transition?
My glamour column this month is all about dating
that's an eye opener!
I read your tinder article this morning - that's fun!
It's been interesting
How many dirty pics have you had so far?
I think straight away a lot of cisgender women
were saying 'welcome to Tinder!'
'that's just Tinder!'
So I feel maybe a little bit hard done by now
I thought I was special
Sadly not, no
That's a sort of weird form of validation, isn't it?
Oh wow I'm really normal - great!
I don't know if it's affecting my work
I certainly don't get asked anymore
'why do you write such good female characters?'
That question defined the first 4 years of my writing
I think it's the non- fiction, I think for the first time
that I'm properly living now
without any secrets
I think there was lots of sub-secrets
but there was always one big secret
So secret for a long time - it was a secret from me!
But I realised that actually the more time I spend living as Juno
the more at ease I feel
and the less shame
And shame is a very evocative word
I'm reading a book by Matthew Todd at the moment
who's the editor of 'Attitude'
It's called 'The Straight Jacket'
and it very much talks about...
In fact - he likens it to child abuse
He says young LGBT people
in so many ways
are told they're wrong
it borders on abuse
And how do we survive that?
How do we grow in to well adjusted adults?
And I'm not sure I was a well adjusted adult
until maybe 2 years ago
So the thing now
because I feel a lot more at ease with myself
and my past
and speaking about what's gone before
I'm actually properly ready to write about it for the first time
and you'll notice I've written novels
I've written non-fiction
but I've never written about myself
So the one big change is that I feel
ready now to tell that
It's not all pretty - but I'm not embarrassed anymore
and I'm not ashamed of it
With children there's a lot of talk about
letting kids explore their gender identity at a young age
and there's a massive backlash about that
What would you say to people who are like that
'We shouldn't be allowing out kids to be themselves!'
For me the advice is always just
listen to children
because children
very young children
often haven't learnt to lie
So I think the things that very young children say
are often very truthful
And I think there's two periods to listen to children in particular
One is when they're very young
Had you asked me at 3:
'Here's the pink pill - do you want to be a girl?'
I would have been like 'absolutely!'
and it would have been honest, unfiltered answer
Then, and I know this from when I was a teacher
children get cruel and judgemental around 7 or 8 years old
it's like they've stopped being quite so self centred
And I think that's when a lot of children learn to shut down
And a lot of children learn to self protect themselves
by going in on themselves
and I think that's the other time we should be particularly
wary of what children are saying to us
A lot of that frantic trans horror about
'children as young as 9 are Transitioning into women or men'
I'm like - no they're not?
This is bad journalism
Possibly, possibly - they've been put on some hormone blockers to buy time
but crikey - I wish I'd have had that option!
I wouldn't have had my shoulders...
which now I'm stuck with
So it's just
giving young people time and space
to think things through
How can that ever be a bad thing?
I know completely it's fascinating.
Around 7 or 8 was when I was like
'oh no I can't say anything now'
You know?
Especially after all those years of hiding away and you wait until everyone is out the house
The last thing I'd like to say
because this goes out to a mixture of trans people and cis people
What would you say to cisgender society?
How's it doing?
I think pretty well
I think it's a learning process
and I think it's a process that's happening in lots of different ways
about lots of different groups
I think for a long time
the UK was able to kid itself that it was not a diverse place to live
We see a variation of the same conversation happening a lot
About mental illness
about Gypsy Roma travellers
about trans people
about lesbian and gay people
about bisexual people
It's about adjusting to just accommodate
everyone!
Gosh I mean the biggest scaremongering at the moment
is around Islam
and around Muslims
And I think gosh if anything
trans people are getting a much easier ride in the press than Muslims
And it is about fear
It's about trying to understand the similarities between us
before looking at the differences
And I think by understanding that all transgender people want
is pretty much the same things as cisgender people
A roof over our heads
a steady job
legal protections
We don't want to lose our jobs for our gender
We want relationships
we want comfort
We want cheap and fast broadband!
And I think
if we could start with those things
I think we'll get a lot further
but like I've said
I seem to just be meeting people who are trying really hard
and people do seem to be
really working on it
And getting there
We will get there eventually
But listen, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to me!
It's been an absolute pleasure!
It's been a blast!