MY NEXT GUEST IS A MACARTHUR GENIUS FELLOW, AND QUITE
POSSIBLY MY FAVORITE LIVING AUTHOR.
PLEASE WELCOME GEORGE SAUNDERS!
♪ ♪ ♪ ( APPLAUSE )
>> Stephen: NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.
>> YOU SAID "QUITE POSSIBLY."
>> Stephen: "QUITE POSSIBLY."
I HAVE TO CHECK WITH MY OTHER LIVING AUTHORS RIGHT NOW.
I MIGHT HAVE THEM ON AT ANOTHER TIME WHEN YOU HAVE TO SAY THE
SAME INTRODUCTION FOR THEM.
>> THAT'S FINE GLI CAN'T BE PAINTED INTO A CORNER, GEORGE.
SOME PEOPLE MIGHT KNOW YOU FROM "THE TENTH OF DECEMBER."
YOU'RE KNOWN FOR YOUR SHORT STORIES.
AND THIS IS YOUR FIRST NOVEL.
IT IS CALLS "LINCOLN IN THE BARDO."
WHY WRITE A NOVEL?
I'VE ALWAYS BEEN TOLD BY PEOPLE WHO ARE PROFESSIONAL WRITERS,
THE SHORT STORY IS SORT OF THE HARDEST THING YOU CAN WRITE.
>> IT'S REALLY HARD.
THE LAST TIME I WAS HERE WE TALKED ABOUT, "I DON'T EVER NEED
TO WRITE A NOVEL.
I'M A PURIST.
I'M ABOVE IT."
>> Stephen: YOU DIDN'T SEEM THAT SMUG AT THE TIME.
>> IN HERE.
>> I HEARD A STORY ABOUT LINCOLN, HIS SON PASSED AWAY,
AND HE WENT INTO THE CRYPT TO HOLD THE BODY-- I HEARD THIS
STORY ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO.
AND I WAS SO MOVED BY IT, AND I THOUGHT, "NO WAY.
TOO HARD.
TOO EARNEST AND TOO SORT OF SENTIMENTAL."
AND ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO I WAS LIKE, "YOU KNOW.
I WANT TO WRITE THIS THING SO BAD."
AND I DON'T WANT TO BE THE GUY WHOSE GRAVE SAID, HE NEVER DID
THE THING HE REALLY WANTED TO DO."
AND I DECIDE TO GIVE MYSELF A THREE-MONTH PASS GR YOU WROTE
THIS IN THREE MONTHS.
>> NO I GAVE MYSELF THREE MONTHS TO WRITE THE FIRST TWO PAGE S.
>> Stephen: WHAT WAS LIKE-- HOW DID YOUR PROCESS CHANGE
GOING FROM SHORT STORY TO NOVEL?
DID YOU HAVE TO ADJUST THE MARGINS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
YOU SEEM TO BE PADDING UP ON THE THE PAGES JUST A LITTLE BIT
HERE.
( LAUGHTER ) I JUST WANT TO POINT OUT.
THERE'S A LOT OF EMPTY SPACES.
( LAUGHTER ) ( APPLAUSE )
A LOT OF EMPTY PAGES.
>> GOES TO THE ONES WITH MORE TEXT ON IT.
IN AN EARLIER EDITION, HAD A 60-POINT FONT.
>> Stephen: WHAT IS THE BARDO?
>> IT'S A TIBETAN WORD.
IN THIS BOOK IT MEANS THE SPACE BETWEEN WHAT HAPPENS BETWEEN THE
TIME YOU DIE AND WHAT HAPPENS NEXT, MAYBE REINCARNATION.
AND THERE'S A COOL BUT TERRIFYING IDEA THAT YOUR MIND
WHEN YOU'RE ALIVE IS KIND OF DAMPENED BY YOUR BODY.
SO YOU MIGHT BE NEUROTIC AND CRAZY BUT WHEN YOU'RE ALIVE
THERE'S A DAMPING ON IT.
THE TEACH TEACHINGS SAY IT'S A W HORSE --
>> Stephen: YOUR MIND IS A WILD HORSE.
>> BUT WHEN YOU DIE THE TETHER THAT TIES IT TO THE POLE IS CUT
AND YOUR MIND GETS SUPER SIZED.
SO WHATEVER NEUROSISES OR REGRETS, THEY GO 10,000 TIMES.
WHICH IS A LITTLE SCARY.
WHATEVER RELIGIOUS SYSTEM YOU THOUGHT, IF YOU'RE A CATHOLIC
YOU SEE CATHOLIC VISIONS.
>> Stephen: IF I CUT THE TETHER, HEAVEN FORBID, IF I CUT
THE TETHER BETWEEN YOUR MIND AND YOUR BODY RIGHT NOW, WHERE WOULD
THE WILD HORSE OF YOUR MIND GO?
WHAT WOULD BE THE OBSESSION?
WHAT WOULD BE THE-- >> I DON'T KNOW.
I THINK WE DON'T KNOW.
THAT'S THE THING.
PART OF ANY SPIRITUAL TRADITION IS YOU'RE TRYING TO TRAIN YOUR
MIND SO WHEN IT GOES, IT GOES TO HAPPY THINGS.
WHATEVER YOU FILLED YOUR MIND WITH DURING YOUR LIFE --
>> Stephen: IS BARDO LIKE PURGATORY.
I WAS RAISED IN THE CATHOLIC TRADITION.
>> ME, TOO.
>> Stephen: YOU WERE?
>> YES.
IT'S A LITTLE MORE WORKABLE.
MY UNDERSTANDING OF PURGATORY IS LIKE DETENTION.
>> Stephen: AFTER LIFE IS OVER, BEFORE YOU GO ON TO
HEAVEN, YOU HAVE TO-- THERE'S A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE THERE MIGHT
BE PUNISHMENT, BUT YOU KNOW IT'S GOING TO BE OVER AT SOME POINT.
>> RIGHT.
>> Stephen: AND THEN YOU GO ON TO HEAVEN.
>> YOU SIT ON A HARD CHURCH PEW UNTIL THE END OF DAYS.
>> Stephen: BUT YOU KNOW IT'S GOING TO BE OVER AT SOME POINT.
>> I KIND OF MORPHED THE REAL BARDO FOR MY OWN PURPOSES, BUT
IN THIS BOOK, THE IDEA IS IF YOU HAD ANY REGRETS OR ANY KINDS OF
PROBLEMS, YOU GOTTA KIND OF WORK THROUGH TOR YOU'RE GOING TO BE
IN THAT ZONE FOREVER.
THERE'S A GOSPEL THING, IF YOU BRING FORTH THAT WHICH IS WITHIN
YOU, IT WILL SAVE YOU.
IF YOU FAIL TO BRING IT FORTH, IT WILL DESTROY YOU.
FIRST OF ALL, THEY DON'T KNOW THEY'RE DEAD.
AND THEY HAVEN'T QUITE FIGURED OUT WHAT IT WAS THAT IS KEEPING
THEM THERE.
IT'S A BUZZKILL.
IT'S A KIND OF REAL DEPRESSING BOOK.
( LAUGHTER ).
>> Stephen: IT IS HEARTBREAK.
I WILL SAY THAT.
WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO SHATTER MY
HEART ON EVERY PAGE HERE?
BECAUSE--
>> BECAUSE I LOVE YOU.
BECAUSE I LOVE YOU.
>> Stephen: WELL, YOU ARE MIST
EAR WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT RADICAL
TENDERNESS, WHICH IS A TERM I
REALLY LOVE, RADICAL TENDERNESS.
AND THE WORLD IS A TOUGH PLACE
TO BE TENDER IN.
>> IT IS.
>> Stephen: BECAUSE TENDERNESS
IS SEEN AS WEAKNESS AND YOU CAN
BE HURT FOR BEING TENDER OR
DISMISSED FOR BEING TENDER.
WE HAVE A PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW
WHO IS--
>> WE DO?
>> Stephen: YES.
( LAUGHTER )
TECHNICALLY, WE DO.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )
AND IN YOUR-- IN YOUR
COMMENCEMENT ESSAY--
CONGRATULATIONS BY ITS WAY-- YOU
TALK ABOUT THE NEED FOR
KINDNESS.
YOU'RE ONLY REGRET IS NOT BEING
KIND.
ARE WE BEING KIND ENOUGH,
HOWEVER UNKIND TRUMP MIGHT SEEM
IN HIS NATURE, ARE WE BEING KIND
ENOUGH TO DONALD TRUMP?
>> UH...
( LAUGHTER )
NO, THIS IS SOMETHING I HEAR A
LOT OF PEOPLE, PROGRESSIVE
PEOPLE SAYING.
SHOULD WE BE EMPATHETIC, OR
SHOULD WE BE FIRM?
AND MY THING IS, YEAH.
YOU KNOW.
EMPATHY IS A REALLY-- IT'S LIKE
A SUPERPOWER.
VERY ROBUST IF YOU DO IT.
IF YOU HAVE SOMEBODY OVER HERE,
SAY A TRUMP SUPPORTER, WHO IS
BELIEVING IN CERTAIN THINGS THAT
CAUSE GREAT HARM TO, SAY, SOME
MEXICAN FAMILY OVER HERE,
IMMIGRANT FAMILY.
WHAT'S THE GREATEST KINDNESS YOU
COULD DO FOR THAT GUY?
YOU COULD PERSUADE HIM.
AND I THINK BY SORT OF TRYING TO
OCCUPY THEIR MIND SPACE, YOU
COULD BE REALLY POWERFUL.
I DON'T THINK IT'S AN EITHER-OR.
YOU COULD BE REALLY, REALLY
LOVING AND FIRM AND
COMPASSIONATE AND HAVE A SENSE
OF HUMOR AND BE FORGIVING, AND
YOU COULD BE FIRM AS HELL AND
NOT TAKE ANY CRAP AND PROTECT
THE PEOPLE WHOSE VULNERABILITY
IS MAKING THEM IN A REALLY
TERRIBLY SCARED PLACE RIGHT NOW
( APPLAUSE ).
>> Stephen: YOU HAVE TO BE
EMPATHETIC TO THEM, TOO.
>> OF COURSE.
THERE'S THAT KIND OF-- THERE'S
THAT KIND OF LIBERAL NOTION THAT
EMPATHY MEANS, LIKE, YOU KNOW,
YOU KIND OF... LIKE TA.
YOU KNOW, THAT KIND OF LOOK.
AND SOMEBODY DRIVES A SPIKE
THROUGH YOUR HEAD, AND YOU'RE
LIKE, "THANK YOU FOR THE COAT
RACK."
YOU KNOW THAT THING.
>> Stephen: NO, I DON'T KNOW
THAT THING.
>> WE'LL TALK.
ACTUALLY, IF YOU WERE GOING TO
TRY TO PERSUADE, SOME TRY TO
LOVE THEM AND TO REALLY
UNDERSTAND THEM IS VASTLY
POWERFUL, I THINK.
>> Stephen: AND VASTLY HARD.
>> YEAH, YEAH.
>> Stephen: THANK YOU FOR
TRYING.
>> AND YOU, TOO.
>> Stephen: LOVELY TO SEE YOU.
>> APPRECIATE IT.
>> THE BOOK IS "LINCOLN IN THE
BARDO."
THE MAN IS GEORGE SAUNDERS.
EVERYBODY.
WE'LL BE BE RIGHT BACK.