>>> VERY FEW PEOPLE REALLY KNOW
WHO ULYSSES S. GRANT WAS.
>> TODAY THERE’S A SENSE THAT HE
WAS FORGOTTEN.
>> HE’S BEEN CALLED SO MANY
THINGS OVER THE YEARS.
>> THE FIRST MODERN AMERICAN
WARRIOR.
>> A BLOODY BUTCHER.
>> A CORRUPT PRESIDENT.
>> A BELLIGERENT DRUNK.
>> THE GREATEST GENERAL OF HIS
TIME.
>> THE UNHEROIC HERO OF OUR
GREATEST NATIONAL EPIC.
>> THERE WERE BUT TWO PARTIES
NOW.
DON’T FORGET, WE POSSESS
STRENGTHS THEY DO NOT HAVE.
>> THAT WAS A LOOK AT THE
THREE-PART MINI SERIES "GRANT"
FOR HISTORY WHICH CHRONICLES THE
LIFE OF ONE OF THE MOST UNDER
APPRECIATED GENERALS AND
PRESIDENTS IN HISTORY.
ULYSSES S. GRANT.
JOINING US NOW, PULITZER PRIZE
WINNING AUTHOR AND BIOGRAPHER
AND RETIRED UNITED STATES ARMY
GENERAL AND FORMER CIA DIRECTOR,
DAVID PETRAEUS.
GREAT TO HAVE YOU BOTH ON TODAY.
>> RON, LET’S BEGIN WITH YOU.
AS YOU GO THROUGH THE -- YOUR
BOOK, I’M SURE THIS MINI SERIES
AS WELL, THE TERM UNHEROIC HERO
SEEMS TO COME TO MIND OVER AND
OVER AGAIN.
HERE’S A MAN TOTALLY
UNDERESTIMATED THROUGHOUT HIS
ENTIRE LIFE.
AS YOU WROTE WHEN HE SHOWED UP
IN WASHINGTON, PEOPLE WERE
SHOCKED BY THE LACK OF -- SORT
OF FORCEFUL PRESENCE AND YET HE
IS A MAN WHO DID AS MUCH AS
ANYBODY THIS SIDE OF ABRAHAM
LINCOLN OF SAVING OUR UNION.
TELL US HOW HE MANAGED THAT.
>> YEAH.
WALT WHITMAN SAID ABOUT ULYSSES
S. GRANT, THERE WAS NOTHING
BAROQUE ABOUT HIM.
HE HAD A SPECIAL TYPE OF
CHARISMA WHICH WAS THE TOTAL
LACK OF CHARISMA.
PEOPLE KNOW HE WAS A NOTORIOUS
UNION GENERAL IN THE CIVIL WAR.
THE SIDE OF THE STORY THAT THEY
DON’T KNOW IS THAT GRANT’S
PRESENCE, HE WAS NOT JUST THIS
FAILED PRESIDENCY MARKED BY
CORRUPTION BUT THAT HE WAS OUR
GREATEST CIVIL RIGHTS PRESIDENT
BETWEEN ABRAHAM LINCOLN AND
LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON.
HE REALLY INHERITED THE MANTLE
OF THE CIVIL WAR AFTER LINCOLN
WAS ASSASSINATED AND THE 4
MILLION FREED SLAVES WHO HAD
BECOME FULL-FLEDGED AMERICAN
CITIZENS WITH THE RIGHT TO VOTE,
IT WAS REALLY GRANT WHO PROTECT
PROTECTED THEM AGAINST THE
VIOLENT BACKLASH AGAINST THE KU
KLUX KLAN IN THE SOUTH.
>> AT THE SAME TIME HE
OBVIOUSLY, AS YOU KNOW, WAS
CRITICIZED BECAUSE THE PROMISE
OF RECONSTRUCTION DID NOT GO THE
WAY LEADERS LIKE FREDERICK
DOUGLAS HAD HOPED IT WOULD GO.
IN FACT, MANY WERE EM BITTERED
THAT GRANT WASN’T AGGRESSIVE
ENOUGH.
HOW DOES HISTORY HOLD HIM
ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT?
DOES IT HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE FOR
THAT?
OR HAS HISTORY BEEN UNFAIR TO
GRANT IN THAT RESPECT?
>> NO, I THINK GRANT DID
EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO SEE
THAT RECONSTRUCTION SUCCEEDED.
I SHOULD SAY, JOE, FOR A LONG
TIME RECONSTRUCTION WAS SEEN AS
A BIG FIASCO WITH LEGISLATORS
BLACK AND WHITE.
NOW WE SEE IT AS A NOBLE
EXPERIMENT IN BIRACIAL JUSTICE.
WE HAD 2,000 AFRICAN-AMERICANS
HELD IN STATE AND LOCAL OFFICES
IN THE SOUTH.
WE HAD 14 BLACK MEMBERS OF THE
HOUSE AND TWO BLACK MEMBERS OF
THE SENATE.
IN FACT, ULYSSES S GRANT
PERSONALLY MARCHED UP TO CAPITOL
HILL WITH HIS ENTIRE CABINET TO
GET PAST THE KU KLUX KLAN ACT.
WHAT HAPPENS, JOE, AT THE END OF
HIS SECOND TERM IS THAT NOT ONLY
IS THERE THE VIOLENT RESISTANCE
IN THE WHITE SOUTH BUT THERE’S
FATIGUE FROM NORTHERN LIBERALS
AS WELL.
SO IN THE LAST YEAR OR TWO OF
HIS SECOND TERM GRANT HAS TO
BACKTRACK FROM HIS COMMITMENT TO
RECONSTRUCTION.
DURING THE FIRST FIVE OR SIX
YEARS OF HIS PRESIDENCY HE COULD
NOT HAVE BEEN A MORE VIGOROUS
SUPPORTER OF IT.
>> GENERAL PETRAEUS, ONE OF THE
MOST NOTABLE THINGS IS HOW GRANT
WAS CONSIDERED A FAILURE BY MANY
EVEN CLOSE TO HIM BUT THAT FIRST
SCENE WHERE HE’S PUT IN CHARGE
OF A GROUP OF GUYS WHO ARE
CONSIDERED MISFITS AND YET IN A
SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME HE SOMEHOW
WILLS THEM TO COME TOGETHER AS A
FIGHTING UNIT AND ACTUALLY EXCEL
ON THE BATTLEFIELD, AND THAT
SEEMED TO BE GRANT’S M.O. TIME
AND TIME AGAIN THROUGHOUT THE
CIVIL WAR.
WHAT SPECIAL LEADERSHIP SKILL
DID HE HAVE THAT SEPARATED HIM
FROM ALL OF LINCOLN’S OTHER
GENERALS?
>> HE HAD EXTRAORDINARY
COMPETENCE
COMPETENCE, JOE.
KEEP IN MIND WHEN LINCOLN FINDS
HIS GENERAL AS IT WAS DESCRIBED,
HE HAD BEEN THROUGH MOST OF THE
OTHER UNION GENERALS IN GETTING
TO GRANT WHO HAD PROVEN HIMSELF
FIRST AT THE TACTICAL LEVEL IN
THE WEST AND THEN WITH HIS
EXTRAORDINARY OPERATIONAL
VICTORY IN VICKSBURG.
THEN HE COMES EAST AND TAKES
CONTROL OF THE UNION FORCES AND
CRAFTS THE STRATEGY THAT DOES
INDEED SAVE THE UNION.
IT WAS HIS STRATEGY WITH SHERMAN
TAKING ATLANTA IN SEPTEMBER OF
1864 AND SHERIDAN TAKING THE
VALLEYS, SHENANDOAH VALLEY, THAT
ENABLED LINCOLN TO WIN THE
ELECTION OF NOVEMBER 1864.
HE WAS RUNNING AGAINST ONE OF
GRANT’S PREDECESSORS, GENERAL
McCLELLAN WHO SAID HE WOULD SUE
FOR PEACE.
WE FORGET THERE WERE DRAFT
RIOTS.
THERE WAS UNREST IN CITIES LIKE
NEW YORK AND IT’S ENTIRELY
POSSIBLE THAT McCLELLAN COULD
HAVE WON HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE
SUCCESSES OF THE FIRST TRUE
STRATEGY OF ALL OF THE UNION
FORCES.
GRANT HAD AN INCOME TO MINABLE
DETERMINATION.
IN THE SERIES THEY HAVE THIS
INCREDIBLE MOMENT AFTER THE
TERRIBLE DAY AT SHILO AND HE
SAID, GRANT, WE HAD THE DEVIL’S
OWN DAY TODAY, DIDN’T WE?
GRANT SAYS, YUP, LICK ’EM
TOMORROW THOUGH.
THIS WAS EVEN INSPIRATIONAL TO
US SO MANY YEARS IN IRAQ.
HE COULD SEE A BATTLEFIELD.
HE COULD SEE IT IN TIME AND IN
SPACE AND HE COULD ISSUE ORDERS
THAT WERE VERY, VERY CLEAR.
IT WOULD SYNCHRONIZE THE
ACTIVITIES OF ALL OF THE
DIFFERENT COMMANDERS ON A
BATTLEFIELD AND ULTIMATELY IN
THE ENTIRE STRATEGY THAT
ENABLED, AGAIN, THE UNION TO WIN
THE WAR AND SAVE THE UNION
BECAUSE IT ENABLED LINCOLN TO
WIN THE WAR.
>> HEY, RON, IT’S WILLIE GEIST.
IN AN EFFORT TO BUTTER UP THE
PROFESSOR, I BROUGHT MY BOOK TO
CLASS TODAY.
IT’S SO FASCINATING AND THE
HISTORY CHANNEL SHOW, THE SERIES
TALKS ABOUT HIM BEING A
MISUNDERSTOOD GENERAL,
MISUNDERSTOOD PRESIDENT.
SOMEONE WHO’S NOT APPRECIATED BY
HISTORY.
I THINK HISTORY APPRECIATES HIM
PRETTY WELL AS GENERAL PETRAEUS
SAID.
BUT WHAT ABOUT AS A PRESIDENT?
HOW WAS HE MISUNDERSTOOD AND
UNDER APPRECIATED THERE?
>> I THINK, WILLIE, I THINK YOU
HAVE TO UNDERSTAND GRANT WAS THE
FIRST PRESIDENT AFTER THE 13th
AMENDMENT WHICH FREED THE SLAVE,
THE 14th AMENDMENT GAVE THEM
EQUAL RIGHTS AND THE 15th
AMENDMENT GAVE BLACK MEN THE
RIGHT TO VOTE.
THERE WERE STATES IN THE SOUTH,
FOR INSTANCE, MISSISSIPPI,
GEORGIA, BLACKS WERE THE
MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION SO
THAT IF BLACKS DARED TO REGISTER
TO VOTE, THEY WOULD TAKE
POLITICAL POWER.
ONE OF THE GREAT UNTOLD STORIES
OF GRANT’S PRESIDENCY IS THAT
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WAS
CREATED UNDER GRANT IN 1870 AND
THE FIRST GREAT CRUSADE OF THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WAS TO CRUSH
THE KU KLUX KLAN.
GRANT APPOINTED A CRUSADING
ATTORNEY GENERAL NAMED AMOS
AMOS AKERMAN.
BROUGHT 3,000 INDICTMENTS AND
CRUSHED THE CLAN.
THIS TOOK TREMENDOUS COURAGE.
AS I WAS SAYING TO JOE A MOMENT
AGO, GRANT HAD TO DO THIS NOT
ONLY IN THE FACE OF SOUTHERN
RESISTANCE BUT OFTEN NORTHERN
RESISTANCE AS WELL.
AT THE END OF THE SECOND TERM
HAYES BECOMES PRESIDENT.
WE BEGIN JIM CROW WHICH LASTS
FOR 80 OR 90 YEARS.
MOST AMERICANS HAVE NO IDEA THAT
WE HAD A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT
IN THE 1860s AND 1870s.
WE HAD THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT OF
1866 AND 1875 THAT CREATED
DESEGREGATION AND PUBLIC
ACCOMMODATIONS IN TRANSPORT.
>> ALL OF DH HAPPENED BEFORE THE
1960s.
>> GENERAL PETRAEUS, IT’S MIKE
BARNACLE.
I’M LOOKING AT GENERAL GRANT’S
MILITARY CAREER.
IT WAS RATHER UNEVEN.
HE SUFFERED DESPERATE LONELINESS
WHEN HE WAS POSTED OUT IN
FREMONT, CALIFORNIA.
HE RESIGNS HIS COMMISSION IN THE
EARLY 1850s AND COMES BACK TO
THE MILITARY IN 1860, 1861 AT
THE START OF THE CIVIL WAR BUT
THERE’S AN ASTOUNDING MOMENT IN
HIS MILITARY CAREER THAT I NEED
YOUR HELP
YOUR HELP IN UNDERSTANDING.
THE COMPASSION AND GENEROSITY HE
SHOWED AT THE SIGNING OF THE
SURRENDER WITH ROBERT E. LEE AT
THE APMATICS COURTHOUSE, HOW
DOES THAT HAPPEN?
>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL IT
HAPPENED BECAUSE LINCOLN
EMPOWERED GRANT TO A
CONSIDERABLE DEGREE TO DRAW UP
THE ARTICLES OF SURRENDER.
AND THEN AS GRANT DESCRIBES IN
HIS MEMOIRS AND AS RON CAPTURES
SO BEAUTIFULLY IN HIS BIOGRAPHY,
GRANT THINKS ABOUT WHAT THE
SOLDIERS OF THE SOUTH ARE GOING
TO GO BACK TO DO AND THEY’RE
OFFICERS AND ALLOWS THEM TO KEEP
THEIR SIDE ARMS, THEIR HORSES.
THEY KNOW THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE
THE HARVEST COME IN.
OF COURSE, IT’S IN APRIL OF
1865.
AND HE, IN A SENSE, PUTS HIMSELF
IN IF YOU WILL, THEIR SHOES.
HE FEELS FOR THEM.
HE DOESN’T FEEL ENORMOUS ENMITY
FOR THEM.
HE DOES BELIEVE THE CLAUSE WAS
THE WORST FOR WHICH MAN EVER
FOUGHT.
BUT HE FEELS VERY MUCH FOR THE
INDIVIDUALS.
AND THAT IS WHAT ANIMATES WHAT
BECOMES QUITE, AS YOU DESCRIBED
IT, A COMPASSION ATEATE SET OF T
OF SURRENDER AND SOUGHT TO
FOSTER RECONCILIATION.
OF COURSE, THAT DID CONTINUE FOR
SOME TIME AS RON DESCRIBED.
BUT ULTIMATELY, BROKE DOWN AFTER
HIS PRESIDENCY.
>> GRANT DID NOT ALLOW HIS
TROOPS TO GLOAT.
HE DIDN’T ALLOW THEM TO
CELEBRATE.
IN FACT, HIS WIFE JULIA
SUGGESTED THAT GRANT GO TO
RICHMOND WHICH HAD BEEN THE
CAPITAL OF THE CONFEDERACY.
JULIA GRANT WANTED HER HUSBAND
TO MARCH INTO RICHMOND AS THE
CONQUERING HERO.
AND GRANT SAID TO HERE, DON’T
YOU REALIZE HOW BITTER DEFEAT
ALREADY IS FOR THESE PEOPLE AND
WHY DO YOU WANT ME TO RUB SALT
INTO THEIR WOUNDS.
I THINK THE FACT THAT GRANT
EXPERIENCED SO MUCH FAILURE IN
HIS OWN LIFE BEFORE THE CIVIL
WAR GAVE HIM A SPECIAL
SENSITIVITY TO THE PSYCHOLOGY OF
DEFEATED MEN AND THEIR NEED FOR
SELF-RESPECT AND THE TREMENDOUS
SENSITIVITY WITH WHICH HE
HANDLED THAT SITUATION.
>> THE THREE-NIGHT TELEVISION
EVENT "GRANT," BEGINS THIS
EVENING AT 9:00 P.M. EASTERN ON
HISTORY.
DAVID PETRAEUS AND RON CHERNOW,
THANK YOU BOTH.
INCREDIBLE TO HAVE YOU BOTH ON. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.