So Maggie, if the if the National Archives are right,
if they have proof that that he was informed
of the correct procedure, what does that say about his exposure?
Or if there's documentation showing that Trump was aware
and the Trump aides were aware of what actual declassification processes were?
That completely undercuts what their claim has been
which is that he had a standing order to automatically declassify all documents
when they left the Oval Office and went up to the White House residence.
Now. I don't think that he's going to back away from that.
We do know the special counsel's office
has been drilling down very, very hard on exactly what the processes were.
They've interviewed a ton of people who worked in the White House and would know.
But I think this is the first thing that I've heard of
that's actual documentation showing what was what.
Because he keeps saying it was a negotiation and that's what is expected.
That it's expected to be negotiated, which isn't true.
And in fact, he said that
under the Presidential Records Act, it says that it's a negotiation.
And that's just not what the Presidential Records Act says.
Now, that's a separate issue than the classification issue.
The classification issue is very specific to intelligence material.
And he has made all kinds of claims
that also have been debunked by former officials working for him.
But in both cases, officials disagree with him.
Is it clear to you
how concerned he is about this and how concerned the people around him on
this is just another break in what Jack Smith is looking for
that has made them anxious overall about this case.
They are worried about the documents case.
They believe the Jack Smith is drilling down on this in a way that is
discomforting for Trump, discomforting for a lot of people around him.
And this is just another piece.
What about the attorney who left? Who was he?
How important?
So Tim Pawlenty was an attorney who had actually been pretty central in the effort
to look for additional documents around Trump's various properties.
He found himself having to speak to the grand
jury as the custodian of the records at that point.
He also made a lot of statements in public that were controversial
about the documents, including saying I think it was on CNN that, you know,
Trump had had a classified folder on a bedside table in his residence.
The judge in the case, I think, took note of those comments.
And it does raise questions
about how if there was literally a classified document in Trump's bedroom
that he was unaware that he still had material.
Do you think?
I mean, obviously, the former president's supporters
rallied around him after the Stormy Daniels hush money case.
Is there any concern in Trumpworld that the reaction to this might be different?
There is not that much concern expressed by Trump folks.
That people around him and his base will see it differently.
That is the hope of some of his critics and opponents,
which is that there will just be such a fact set around this
that it will be distinct enough to make the case that this is different.
But no, they think
they're going to be able to paint this and a potential indictment out of Georgia
in connection with his efforts to remain in power in 2021,
that this is all going to be part of what he calls the witch hunt
and that his voters won't see it differently.
How organized is his campaign structure at this point?
You know, it's pretty organized, actually.
I mean, there is a there is a clear team of people.
They have their assigned roles.
It doesn't mean that they are going to be flawless
but, you know, this is actually the most organized.
One of his campaigns in my memory has been at least at least in this way
at this stage in 20,
ten, 20, 20, It was it was well-organized in various ways at various points.
But this early, this is more organized than I remember it being.
Maggie Haberman, thanks. Thank you.
The National Archives is set to hand over
16 presidential records to special counsel Jack Smith
for his investigation into Trump's mishandling of classified documents.
It says they show that Trump and his top advisers were aware of the proper
declassification process, that despite Trump claiming multiple times,
he did declassify the papers simply by removing them from the White House
If you're the president
of the United States, you can declassify just by saying it's declassified.
Even by thinking about it, I have the right to declassify documents
and the process is automatic.
If I take them with me, it's automatic.
By the way, they become automatically declassified.
When I took them behind.
Let me ask you.
But they don't become automatically declassified.
We've heard that from his own advisers.
The 16 Records, which we are now told was subpoenaed earlier this year.
Are going to be handed over next Wednesday to Jack Smith and his investigation.
They could potentially help those investigators overcome a significant
obstacle to a potential prosecution of the former president.
So let's get legal insight into all of that.
Let's turn to CNN senior legal analyst Ellie Hoenig.
Big picture, how much does this matter for prosecutors?
A lot.
Poppy, the key word here for prosecutors is intent.
Right.
How much did Donald Trump know and did he know that his actions were wrong?
Now, the new reporting
is that the National Archives, that's the federal agency
that's responsible for handling presidential records during Donald Trump's
presidency, sent him 16 different documents.
Now, we don't know exactly what those documents say,
but we do know that they related to whether why and how
you should declassify certain classified records.
And so what prosecutors are going to argue is he knew they told him
this is how you do it if you want to declassify.
If he didn't do that, then he did not declassify.
Trump has tried to argue before that these were automatically declassified.
He did it by his mind or he argued at one point that he issued
a standing order that any documents I take are automatically declassify
We know that's not true because there's no evidence of it
and there's no evidence to remember who circle.
18 former White House officials called that claim total nonsense.
Ridiculous B.S.
a complete fiction and laughable.
So prosecutors are going to use this as key evidence of intent.
I was just going to go ahead.
Yes. Also, if we're looking at the potential charges
here, back when DOJ got permission to do the search warrant of Mar a Lago,
they listed three potential crimes.
One of them was obstruction of justice.
The other is destroying or concealing any government document.
But the third one,
this is the one that matters here, mishandling defense information.
There's an argument that that only applies to classified documents.
So if Trump did declassify this ones out, but if he failed to declassify,
this is still in play for prosecutors.
What I was going to ask is
you've got to believe Trump's going to challenge this in the courts.
Is that a tough bar to meet?
You say you can't see these prosecutors.
He's very likely to challenge it in court.
He's very unlikely to prevail.
If he does, he'll argue executive privilege or say these were communications
from archives and executive branch agency over to me when I was president.
So they're confidential.
It's not that straightforward, though.
We've known for almost 50 years now, dating back to a famous Supreme
Court case involving Richard Nixon that, yes, executive privilege exists,
but it's meant to protect legitimate strategy, not all yours.
If there's a possible crime Exactly.
Courts have been very disinclined to use executive privilege
to block prosecutors from getting evidence.
And Trump has tried this and people around him almost countless times.
Everyone from Mike Pence, the former vice president, on down, he has lost
all of these cases.
His record is essentially zero wins on executive privilege, all losses.
And I think if he challenges this, he'll have another one in the lawsuit.
You help us understand
big picture here, because we all remember when Trump's attorney general, Bill Barr,
said in an interview a month or two ago, essentially the most potentially
harmful case against the former president right now is the Mar a Lago Docs case.
So four pending potential criminal matters.
There's a lot swirling around Donald Trump.
Now, of course, he has been indicted by the Manhattan D.A.
over the falsification allegedly of hush money payments to Stormy Daniels.
We also have pending matters down in Georgia.
The Fulton County D.A.,
then the Mar a Lago documents case, which Bill Barr believes is the biggest threat.
Hard to sort of weigh them all.
And then finally, also an investigation into January six
and the way this is going to work within the Justice Department.
We have Jack Smith.
He is the special counsel.
He's in charge of both of these cases, the Mar
a Lago documents, which we were just talking about.
Plus, January six, he will have to recommend whether to indict or not.
But ultimately,
this guy, the attorney general, he will make the decision, yes or no.
Ellie Hoenig, thank you so helpful as always.