JUDY WOODRUFF: All over the world today, men and women compete in high-level athletics.
But to keep competition fair, they almost always compete separately.
The world's sporting organizations argue there's a clear, distinguishable line between the
sexes.
But as, William Brangham reports, the case of one female South African runner, Olympic
gold medalist Caster Semenya, has blurred that line.
For more on Semenya's case, and what it means for the sporting world, I'm joined now by
Madeleine Pape.
She's a former track and field Olympian.
She represented her home country of Australia in the 2008 Beijing Olympics and in other
international competitions.
She's now working on a sociology Ph.D. focusing on gender at the University of Wisconsin,
Madison.
And Christine Brennan, she's a sports columnist for USA Today and a regular guest on the "NewsHour."
Thank you both very much for being here.
Madeleine, to you first.
You have raced against Ms. Semenya, and you have a sense of how fast and what a remarkable
athlete she is.
What did you make of this ruling saying, if she wants to keep racing, she has to start
taking drugs to suppress testosterone?
MADELEINE PAPE, Former Track and Field Olympian: I was disappointed with the decision by the
Court of Arbitration for Sport.
I think Caster Semenya has really been on a journey over the past 10 years, since we
first saw her compete on the international level.
And the sport as well has been on a journey.
And I think, contrary to how this is being represented sometimes, there actually is a
great diversity of opinion about this topic.
And a lot of people have changed their views about sex and testosterone.
So I was really hoping that Semenya would be the athlete that put an end to these kinds
of practices in sport and that the Court of Arbitration for Sport would make a ruling
that reflected the journey that we have been on as a sport since 2009.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: What is that you think that the court specifically got wrong?
MADELEINE PAPE: Look, it's difficult to say because we don't have a full account of how
the court made its decision.
I think some -- there are some questions, though, that remain unanswered.
For example, why is it that these rules apply to the 1,500 meters and the mile, even though
the court acknowledged that the IAAF doesn't actually have scientific evidence to illustrate
a relationship between testosterone and athletic ability in those events.
So I think that has gone unanswered.
And I also think there has -- there has to be more discussion of the scientific debates
that continue to surround this idea that testosterone has a clear relationship to athletic ability.
That scientific discussion is ongoing, as we have seen in the last few days.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine, the court clearly ruled that the science is clear.
I mean, contrary to what Madeleine is saying, they argue that the science does show that
higher levels of testosterone confers an advantage.
But the court basically acknowledged that, yes, we are discriminating against this woman,
but we're doing it to protect the integrity of women's athletics more broadly.
What do you make of that?
CHRISTINE BRENNAN, USA Today: Right, William.
Well, first of all, we cannot say it enough how terribly Caster Semenya has been treated,
especially by the IAAF.
This is a woman who is so important in her country, obviously a woman of color in South
Africa.
We know our history there.
And for her to be dragged through 10 years, basically, of uncertainty, when she was born
this way, is astounding.
And the lack of leadership there is remarkable.
Having said that, this is a conversation that I think we're going to be having for the next
30, 40, 50 years, a conversation about exactly, well, one, the level of testosterone that
we would like to see allowed in women's and girls sports, whether -- of course, with Caster
Semenya, she was born this way.
But it easily morphs into...
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Right.
It's crucial to keep saying this.
CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Absolutely.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: That she did nothing to change.
This is how she is.
CHRISTINE BRENNAN: And I have written columns defending her, absolutely.
But the important point is, there is a larger conversation.
And this may well be -- as a journalist covering the Olympics now for 30-some years, this may
well be, William, a story that then jumps into the world of transgender participation
in sport.
This is a topic and a conversation that's going to be discussed at dinner tables.
It's going to be discussed in supermarkets, what we want in terms of girls and women's
sports.
We have made the classification that girls and women's sports are different than boys
and men's sports.
We have made that classification.
So, now, how do we then pursue these issues, especially at a time where we're looking at
the science?
And I think that's why this ruling was important.
And discrimination, again, against Caster Semenya is so unfortunate.
There is a larger pool here to also look at and to wonder about discrimination against
those athletes.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Madeleine, as Christine is saying, we did once upon a time decide
that boys athletics and women's athletics, boys and girls athletics, should be separate,
because there is a desire to have a more level playing field.
Caster Semenya's case seems to force us to really reconsider that.
MADELEINE PAPE: Yes, that's right.
And I think -- I appreciated Christine saying that.
I mean, I think one of Semenya's legacies is going to be that she has led us towards
this -- this conversation and this reflection on how we feel about sex and testosterone
in elite sport.
I think, in response to Christine's -- Christine's answer earlier, it's important to be clear
that transgender women and women with high testosterone are subject to distinct sets
of regulations, and changes in one set of regulations doesn't necessarily have implications
for the other.
There's no doubt that we have to have a larger conversation as a sport about the place and
the rights of transgender women, who haven't been given a fair hearing in terms of it being
a compassionate and informed conversation.
But I do think that women with high testosterone need to be judged on their own terms, and
that people shouldn't be bringing their feelings about transgender women into this conversation.
And I think we can all agree that we have women's sport as our top priority, and we
want what's best for women's sport.
We may disagree on how to get there, but we all want what's best for women's sport.
I take my lead on this issue from the Women's Sports Foundation here in the United States
and advocates like Billie Jean King, who have come out in support of Caster Semenya, and
who are encouraging us to see her contributions to women's sport as a positive and something
that we should celebrate.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Christine, in elite sports elsewhere -- I'm thinking of Usain Bolt, LeBron
James, Simone Biles, Michael Phelps, those people are, of course, extraordinary athletes,
but they are also near physically perfect for their particular sports.
We don't look at their abilities and think of it as an unfair advantage.
We just think of it as part and parcel of their greatness.
Why do you think we think of Caster's case differently?
CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Yes.
We haven't made a classification for many of those categories that you just described.
For example, Michael Phelps' feet, like flippers, certainly helped him win all those gold medals.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And his enormous wingspan.
CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Exactly, and his torso.
So, if we had a classification for foot size -- and I'm not -- you -- I think you know
me well.
As a journalist, I take this very seriously.
So I'm not making light of this.
But, if we did, then Michael Phelps would be in a different category than some of the
other swimmers.
But we don't do that.
We have decided -- society has decided, our culture, William, has decided to make categories
for men's and women's sports and separate them.
We basically have segregation.
Now, by the way, transgender rights are hugely important to me.
And I think it must be said, because any time you delve into what, as I said, is a complex
conversation -- this has been going on for a long, long time -- you want to make this
crystal clear.
I, of course, support transgender rights.
I absolutely do.
The question is, what are we going to -- what do we want to see out of women and girls sports?
And is there a limit on testosterone involving participating in women's and girls sports?
And we have seen, for example, with the NCAA and the International Olympic Committee and
others, they say, if you are going as a transgender person -- and, again, Caster Semenya is not
transgender -- but to take the conversation further, if you are transgender, and you are
a woman, then you need to take some hormones, so that your testosterone level is lower.
We have seen leagues say this.
Maybe there -- this will go to the Supreme Court at some point.
And, as a journalist, I plan to cover every second of this.
But I would also say this, that if you think of Caitlyn Jenner -- of course, Bruce Jenner
won the Olympic gold medal in 1976, before I started covering the Olympics, in the decathlon,
and was one of the great heroes in sport around the world, cover of "Sports Illustrated,"
et cetera.
If, instead of a few years ago, Caitlyn Jenner deciding to transition, if she had done this
back in -- from '76 to '84, and then become a woman and come back to the Olympics in '84
in Los Angeles and competed in the heptathlon, and I dare say probably won that event.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As a woman.
CHRISTINE BRENNAN: As a woman.
We would have had a fantastic and interesting and riveting conversation about this then.
That's what we're talking about.
And that is what, as a journalist, I see moving forward.
WILLIAM BRANGHAM: It is such a complicated question, with obviously no easy answers here.
Christine Brennan, Madeleine Pape, thank you both very much for being here.
CHRISTINE BRENNAN: Thank you.