♪ >>> GOOD EVENING.
I’M STEVE KORNACKI IN FOR CHRIS
MATTHEWS.
MATTHEWS. THE PRESIDENT’S FORMER LAWYER
MICHAEL COHEN IS SET TO TESTIFY
BEFORE CONGRESS IN A MARATHON
SERIES INCLUDING CLOSED DOOR
HEARINGS BEFORE THE HOUSE AND
SENATE INTELLIGENCE AND PLUS THE
HIGHLY-ANTICIPATED TESTIMONY
HIGHLY-ANTICIPATED TESTIMONY BEFORE THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT ON
WEDNESDAY.
WEDNESDAY. AS A CLOSE TRUMP CONFIDANT FOR
OVER A DECADE,CO COHEN IS
PROMISING ACCORDING TO HIS
LAWYER TO EXPOSE CHILLING NEW
DETAILS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT.
COHEN ALREADY REVEALED THE TRUE
DURATION AND SCOPE OF THE
PRESIDENT’S EFFORTS TO BUILD A
TRUMP TOWER IN MOSCOW WHICH HE
TRIED TO COVER UP TO FALSE
STATEMENTS TO CONGRESS.
IN PLEADING GUILTY TO THOSE LIES
CONE SAID I MADE THESE
MISSTATEMENT TO BE CONSISTENT
WITH TRUMP’S POLITICAL
MESSAGING.
MESSAGING. HE THEN IMPLICATED THE PRESIDENT
IN WHAT COULD BE A FELONY
ADMITTING HE, QUOTE, ACTED IN
COORDINATION AND AT THE
DIRECTION OF TRUMP.
AND IN CARINGY OUT A SCHEME TO
BREAK CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS TO
TWO WOMEN NOT SPEAKING ABOUT
LIAISONS.
LIAISONS. HE SAID HE HAD BLIND LOYALTY TO
DONALD TRUMP AND TIME AND TIME
AGAIN I FELT IT WAS MY DUTY TO
COVER UP HIS DIRTY DEEDS.
BUT WHILE COHEN IS SET TO START
A THREE-YEAR PRISON SENTENCE THE
INVESTIGATION BY THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT OF NEW YORK CONTINUES
AND AMONG OTHER THINGS
PROSECUTORS ARE EXECUTINIZING
THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION.
THE TRUMP FAMILY AND THE TRUMP
INAUGURAL COMMITTEE FOR
POTENTIAL CAMPAIGN FINANCE
VIOLATIONS AND OTHER
IRREGULARITIES ACCORDING TO "THE
NEW YORK TIMES."
FOR MORE I’M JOINED BY FRANK
FLAG LUZZI AND THEN CHARLIE
SYKES FROM THE BULL WART AND
PHILIP BUMP IS A POLITICAL
REPORTER WITH "THE WASHINGTON
POST."
POST." THANK YOU FOR ABOUT WITH US.
FRANK, LET ME START WITH YOU.
THREE SEPARATE HEARINGS AND TWO
BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND ONE THE
WHOLE WORLD WILL WATCH THIS
WEEK.
WEEK. MICHAEL COHEN TESTIFYING IN
FRONT OF CONGRESS.
I KNOW THE QUESTIONS ARE
PROBABLY GOING TO BE VERY
FAR-RANGING FROM THE MEMBERS OF
CONGRESS.
CONGRESS. REALISTICALLY, SET THE BAR.
WHERE ARE THE AREAS THAT THE
PUBLIC HAS THE MOST OPPORTUNITY
TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW THIS
WEEK?
WEEK? >> SURE, STEVE.
SO IN ADDITION TO THE
POSSIBILITY THAT WE COULD HEAR
ABOUT CRIMES WE DON’T ALREADY
KNOW ABOUT RELATED TO TRUMP AND
HIS FAMILY AND THE TRUMP
ORGANIZATION OR TRUMP
FOUNDATION, WE SHOULD BE FOCUSED
ON LISTENING FOR THREE THINGS.
FIRST, THE BIG QUESTION, WHAT
PRECISELY DID COHEN LIE ABOUT
AND WHY?
AND WHY? NUMBER TWO, WHO, IF ANYONE,
DIRECTED HIM OR -- TO LIE OR
KNEW ABOUT THE LIES AND AT WHAT
LEVEL, DID THAT GO TO THE OVAL
OFFICE.
OFFICE. AND NUMBER THREE IS DID TRUMP OR
SOMEONE ON BEHALF OF TRUMP
ATTEMPT TO INTIMIDATE OR
THREATEN COHEN ABOUT LYING TO
CONGRESS THAT MIGHT CONSTITUTE
WITNESS TAMPERING.
WITNESS TAMPERING. I’LL BE FOCUSED LIKE A LASER ON
THOSE THREE THINGS AND I THINK
CONGRESS WILL DO.
>> AND MIMI, THE QUESTION OF
WHAT DOES HE SAY AND THE OTHER
QUESTION TO BACK UP, IS WHAT CAN
HE SAY?
HE SAY? THE MUELLER PROBE IS STILL
ONGOING.
ONGOING. COHEN SAID HE’LL TALK ABOUT THAT
ASPECT OF IT WHEN THAT IS OVER.
THIS SOUTHERN DISTRICT
INVESTIGATION IS STILL ONGOING
AND WE’VE HAD REPORTING IN THE
LAST COUPLE OF DAYS ABOUT
LOOKING AT THE TRUMP INAUGURAL
COMMITTEE.
COMMITTEE. IF YOU HAVE FEDERAL
INVESTIGATORS STILL TAKING A
LOOK AT ALL OF THAT STUFF, IF
YOU HAVE THE MUELLER PROBE STILL
GOING ON, DOES THAT PLACE LIMITS
ON WHAT MICHAEL COHEN COULD BE
TALKING ABOUT IN PUBLIC HERE?
>> WELL I THINK IT DEPENDS WHO
YOU’RE ASKING.
YOU’RE ASKING. FROM THE PROSECUTOR’S POINT OF
VIEW IN THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF
NEW YORK, MY GUESS IS THEY
PROBABLY DO WANT TO PLAY SOME
LIMITS ON IT BECAUSE PROSECUTORS
NEVER WANT INFORMATION ABOUT
ONGOING INVESTIGATIONS TO GET
OUT INTO THE PUBLIC SPHERE,
FLORIDALY
FLORIDALY PARTICULARLY IN THIS SETTING
THAT IS POLITICAL AS OPPOSED TO
WHAT THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT IS
DOING.
DOING. AND WHEN I SAY POLITICAL, I MEAN
IT IS IN THE POLITICAL ARENA.
IT IS CONGRESS.
IT IS LITERALLY A POLITICAL
PLACE AS OPPOSED TO THE
PROSECUTORS IN A U.S. ATTORNEY’S
OFFICE.
OFFICE. THEY’RE JUST DIFFERENT SORT OF
MISSIONS.
MISSIONS. SO I THINK THAT PROBABLY THE
PROSECUTORS WANT TO PUT LIMITS
ON IT.
ON IT. I DON’T KNOW WHAT ARRANGEMENTS
THEY’VE HAD.
THEY’VE HAD. BUT MY GUESS IS THAT THERE HAS
BEEN SOME COORDINATION AND THAT
HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT,
WHETHER OR NOT THEY’VE AGREED ON
EVERYTHING.
EVERYTHING. BUT YOU KNOW, THERE IS -- THERE
IS CERTAINLY THINGS THAT MICHAEL
COHEN HAS ALREADY TESTIFIED
ABOUT, EVEN IN THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT UNDER OATH, NOT
TESTIFIED BUT STATEMENTS UNDER
OATH THAT I THINK WOULD BE FAIR
GAME BECAUSE WE ALREADY KNOW
ABOUT THEM BUT IT IS A QUESTION
OF FURTHER DETAILS.
IF HE SAID TRUMP DIRECTED AND
COORDINATED THESE PAYMENTS, WHAT
DOES THAT MEAN?
WERE THERE CONVERSATIONS, WAS HE
EXPLICIT AND WAS IT A WINK AND
NOD AND WHO IS EXECUTIVE ONE AND
EXECUTIVE TWO.
EXECUTIVE TWO. THESE ARE THINGS THAT -- WHICH
WAS SOMETHING NAMED -- PEOPLE
NAMED IN THE PAPERS THAT COHEN
PLED GUILTY TO.
SO I THINK THERE IS THINGS THAT
HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO INTO
WITHOUT HARMING THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT INVESTIGATION.
DISTRICT INVESTIGATION. >> TO UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS,
TOO, MORE, MIMI, IN TERMS OF
INCENTIVE, HE’S SCHEDULE TO
BEGIN A PRISON SENTENCE IN MAY
AND WE’VE GONE THROUGH THE
SENTENCING PHASE.
SENTENCING PHASE. IS THERE STILL SOMETHING -- CAN
HE GAIN SOMETHING FROM THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE STANDPOINT IN
TERMS OF HIS SENTENCE, IN TERMS
OF WHAT HE’S FACING LEGALLY?
IS THERE STILL SOMETHING HE
COULD GAIN FROM PROSECUTORS,
FROM THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT BY
ADHERING TO WHATEVER IT IS THEY
WOULD LIKE HIM TO ADHERE TO?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. HE’S BEEN SENTENCED TO THREE
YEARS IN PRISON.
IN PART BECAUSE HE DID NOT HAVE
A COOPERATION AGREEMENT AND GET
A RECOMMENDATION BASICALLY FOR
MORE LENIENT SENTENCE FROM THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK.
BUT POST-SENTENCING, THERE ARE
PROVISIONS IN THE FEDERAL RULES
THAT ALLOW FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO
GO BACK AND SAY, OKAY, NOW WE
THINK HE SHOULD GET SOME CREDIT.
SO I THINK THAT IS AN INCENTIVE
FOR HIM TO STICK BY WHATEVER
AGREEMENT HE MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE
WITH THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT ABOUT
AREAS AND ALSO ANNIN -- AN
INCENTIVE FOR HIM TO TELL THE
TRUTH AND KEEP THAT IN MIND AND
BECAUSE WHATEVER HE TESTIFIES
ABOUT WITHIN THE REALM OF THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT INVESTIGATION,
THEY’LL KNOW WHETHER HE TELLS
THE TRUTH AND IF HE LIES HE’LL
BE IN MUCH MORE TROUBLE.
>> AND AS HE TESTIFIED IN
PUBLIC, THE QUESTION OF HIS
CREDIBILITY.
CREDIBILITY. LIES TO CONGRESS BEFORE AND
GOING BACK IN FRONT OF CONGRESS
AND LANNY DAVIS -- HE WAS HIS
LAWYER AND NOW HIS LEGAL
ADVISER.
ADVISER. LANNY DAVIS IS A POLITICAL
PLAYER.
PLAYER. HE HAS A POLITICAL AX TO GRIND
HERE THAT IS OBVIOUS.
IN TERMS OF THE CREDIBILITY, IS
THERE AN ADD ADD THRESHOLD THAT
COHEN HAS TO -- IF HE’S GOING TO
HAVE CHILLING REVELATIONS HERE,
AS LANNY DAVIS IS SAY, IS THERE
AN ADDED THRESHOLD AND WHAT
WOULD THAT BE.
>> IT IS HARD FOR THEM IN
REAL-TIME TO BE ABLE TO EVALUATE
THE VERACITY OF WHAT HE’S
SAYING.
SAYING. ONLY AFTER THE FACT THEY
REALIZED WHAT HE HAD REPRESENTED
TO CONGRESS ABOUT WHEN THEY
STOPPED TALKING ABOUT THE MOSCOW
TRUMP TOWER DEAL WAS INACCURATE
AND THAT MUELLER SURFACED.
SO IT IS HARD FOR THEM TO DO
THAT.
THAT. THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE
WHAT HE SAYS AND WORK FROM IT.
ONE OF THE THINGS TO REMEMBER,
THE BIG CHANGE BETWEEN NOW AND
THE LAST TIME MICHAEL COHEN WAS
ON CAPITOL HILL, IS THAT THE
DEMOCRAT RUN THE HOUSE.
THEY COULD LAUNCH INVESTIGATIONS
BASED ON WHAT MICHAEL COHEN IS
SAYING.
SAYING. SO THEY DON’T HAVE TO TAKE HIM
AT FACE VALUE.
THEY COULD HEAR WHAT HE SAYS AND
THEN SPIN THINGS OFF AND I THINK
IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER, WE
FOCUS SO MUCH ON THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION.
INVESTIGATION. BUT I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT
FOR US TO REMEMBER ABOUT THE
SCOPE OF THE TIME THAT HE SPENT
AT THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION.
YOU PLAYED THAT CLIP AT THE TOP
WHERE HE SAID, TIME AND TIME
AGAIN HE HAD TO HOLD HIS NOSE
AND COVER UP FOR DONALD TRUMP.
WHAT WERE ALL OF THE TYPES.
WE’RE TALKING ABOUT A DECADE
SITTING THERE COVERING -- WHAT
WERE THE THINGS HE’S COVERING
UP.
UP. ALL OF THOSE ARE POTENTIAL
AVENUES FOR EXPLORATION BY THE