Previously unknown second
grand jury in the documents case.
And word late
today that former Trump chief of staff
Mark Meadows has in fact, testified
before a grand jury on court.
Unclear which one Also unclear
when he testified
or which line of inquiry
the special counsel
is pursuing the documents
or January six
or perhaps both, seen
as Kaitlan Collins is here.
What have you learned?
A lot of questions about this,
especially when it comes to
the Mark Meadows investigation.
Of course,
that's the Mark Meadows testimony.
We knew he was going to have to testify
because they subpoenaed him.
The Trump team tried to fight it,
citing executive privilege.
They lost that.
So we knew it was going to happen.
We just didn't know when.
And now we know he has testified.
He's a key
figure in both of these investigations.
And so that is notable here
and was with the former president
throughout the day
on January six, was with him
throughout the day on January six,
was once
his representative
to the National Archives,
which of course is at the center
of the documents investigation,
was on the phone
that Trump had the phone call
Trump had with the Georgia
secretary of state.
And now we know there's that audio
recording of Trump
talking about classified documents
and having them.
He also went down to Georgia.
He also went down to Georgia
several times
trying to broker meetings
with officials there,
but also the audio recording
that we now know,
Jack Smith, the special counsel has,
was because Mark Meadows
was writing
a book
ghostwriting, and his autobiography
was recorded.
The conversation in the
What is this grand jury in Miami?
So when you hear that
people are going for the grand jury
when it comes to the documents
case, it's always been in Washington.
We've seen this,
but we hadn't seen any activity
since May.
And now we know that
there is a grand jury
that is also convened in Florida,
in Miami,
where witnesses are going
before them
when it comes to the documents case.
And so it's raised a lot of questions,
confusion, even in Trump's world
about what exactly the second
grand jury is doing,
what the purpose of that,
whether or not charges,
if they're brought,
would be brought in Miami
or in Washington,
which would make a difference.
What we do know is
a witness has already gone
before the grand jury,
multiple witnesses.
Another is going tomorrow.
And so it certainly
is continuing to progress.
So so that Miami one is still
there are still having witnesses.
Yeah.
It appears that they've only convened
in the last several weeks.
It's not clear when exactly,
but they're hearing
from a witness tomorrow, we're told.
Caitlin, stay with us.
Want to bring in CNN senior legal analyst
and former
federal prosecutor Elie Honig,
also CNN contributor
John Dean, who served as Nixon's
Richard Nixon's White House counsel,
during Watergate.
Ellie, what do you make this Miami
grand jury?
So it could be a couple of things.
First of all,
it could just be a convenience
that prosecutors are extending
as a courtesy to witnesses down there.
If they're witnesses
who are unwilling
or unable to come up to D.C..
What you do
is you take their testimony
in front of a federal grand jury
in Florida,
and then you can just read
their testimony
to the grand jury in D.C..
Option B,
it could be
that there's some piece of the case
that's only chargeable in Florida,
for example,
if they're looking at
potentially charging
someone who worked at Mar
a Lago,
that person would have no connection
to whatever happened in D.C.
So they would need to charge that case
in Florida. And then option C.
The big one is
it could be that they're considering
prosecutors are considering
charging the big case
potentially against Donald Trump
in Florida rather than Washington, D.C.
And prosecutors have a lot of discretion
about what where they
why would they do that?
So the rule as a prosecutor
is you get to choose
what federal district
you're going to bring your case in.
But it has to be a federal district
where some portion of the crime occurred
so here
you can see how the crime
occurred in Florida,
the document retention
and mishandling crime
and the obstruction crime.
Now, the other option is D.C.
the argument would be, well,
he took the documents from D.C., right.
That would be sort of
the scene of the crime.
But the counterargument to that is, yes,
but if the facts are in,
Caitlin would probably notice
if he took the documents out of there
and sent them down to Mar
a Lago before noon on January 20th
while he was still president.
That's not going to be a crime.
It doesn't become a crime
until he loses
the power of the presidency
and then he illegally has
those documents.
And if that's the case,
then the whole crime happened in Florida,
not in D.C.
and you can't charge in D.C..
Well, and also the question
a big question of that case
is not just the taking, it's
the keeping of the documents
and the obstruction factor in that.
And so
the other question
I have about it,
though, is a lot of the aides
who have gone and testified
have come to Washington to testify
before that grand jury,
including Walter Nata.
That was the body man in the White House
or is his valet in the White House?
He's now Trump's body man.
He has gone and testified.
We know and he talked
he said he didn't move any boxes.
Then when he went back
and it was clear
prosecutors had
surveillance footage of him moving boxes,
he changed his testimony
and then went dark.
John Dean,
I mean, it's tough to overstate
Mark Meadows
importance in the Trump
White House
and his his closeness
to Trump on January six.
How big a deal is it
that he has testified to a grand jury?
Again,
we don't know when this was or
you know, obviously what what he said
It's a
big deal
because he is
a remarkably important witness.
We don't know, Anderson,
whether or not
he has
personal liability or exposure
from any of his activities of the
Trump White House
or if he has some sort of cooperation
deal.
I do know
he has one of the better attorneys
in this whole picture
and one of the more able
attorneys in Washington
who has got two decades
at the Department of Justice,
including deputy attorney general.
This is somebody who could guide him
through the process
and possibly
get him through with minimal problems.
So
this is a breaking story still.
But a very important one.
KEILAR It is clear to you
how the former president's team
feels about Mark Meadows.
I mean, do they
do they know where he stands
or what he's doing?
My sense from my reporting is
they don't really talk to him that much.
And it's not totally clear to me
what Trump thinks of it.
But Trump's legal team
certainly is worried about it
because he's obviously central to
like three of these investigations,
maybe four, and has gone very quiet.
They haven't been speaking to him.
Don mentioned his attorney
there last time.
I was told
they were not speaking to his attorney.
Either. So there's not.
And which these attorneys
speak only
frequently speak in these investigations.
And so
I think that's raised a lot of questions
for them
on what he is saying to the government.
I mean, if he had cut a deal,
we wouldn't know about it.
When would we know about it?
So we would
certainly know about it at some point,
either the reporting
or just when he testifies in court.
If you gave me a choice as a prosecutor,
if any one witness in this whole case
that I could have if I was guaranteed
full and truthful testimony,
I choose Mark Meadows.
I mean, as Kaitlan said, he's right.
He's the chief of staff in word.
And indeed
he is
by Trump's side at key moments
before and during January six.
Remember, he's
the one who
Republican members of Congress, members
of Donald Trump's own family
are texting him
as January six is happening,
saying you have to get the president
to do something.
He's the key point of contact
with archives. He's a crucial player.
And his testimony could be invaluable.
Could he just plead the Fifth?
I mean, yeah.
So there's a couple of ways
that Mark Meadows could testify.
He could just go in there, testify
and hope for the best.
That would be very risky
because he has potential
criminal exposure.
I think the most likely scenario is
his lawyer
said he's going to take the Fifth.
And then what you do as a prosecutor,
if you want his testimony,
immunize him, meaning, okay,
we're not going to use your testimony
against you.
Meaning we really can't prosecute
you now. You have to testify.
John, how likely do you think it is
at this point
that they actually will seek
an indictment of the former president?
I think it's highly likely.
All the signs point that way.
The evidence is certainly overwhelming.
What I'm curious is,
is whether they offer him
a deal in the documents case.
That's the norm
with high level
people who violate the law
and get themselves in trouble
with security clearances.
But I don't know if even Donald Trump
would take a deal if he was offered one.
John Dean, appreciate it.
Leonid Galen, thanks very much.
Kayleigh is going to be back
at the top of the hour for CNN.
Prime time at 9 p.m. with more.
Joining us now,
CNN senior political commentator,
former Illinois
Republican congressman and former
January six select committee member
Adam Kinzinger.
Congressman I'm wondering what
your reaction to this revelation of
a Florida grand jury is.
Yeah, I mean, it's
of all the possibilities, I'm as confused
as anyone You know,
I think it's quite possible
that maybe the D.C.
grand jury
is focusing on things
maybe more
related to January 6th or whatever
the D.C.
connection is to the documents. Case.
And they're resting.
It seems like they haven't met recently.
And Florida may be again,
because you according
to the Sixth Amendment,
you have to give somebody
an opportunity in their own area.
And particularly
if the crime was only committed
down there.
But, you know,
the one thing
I'm hoping is that it's not,
in essence, a restart.
It doesn't seem like that.
But, yeah,
I think it's as confusing to me
as it has to anybody else.
You were obviously on the January
six committee.
I'm wondering what your thoughts are on
Mark Meadows.
We now know he's reportedly already
testified to a federal grand jury.
Do we don't know when we don't know
exactly what he said
or which line of inquiry,
whether classified documents
or January six or what it may have been?
Well, look, Anderson, this is huge.
And I heard Ellie saying earlier about,
you know, text messages
and everything else.
Let me say this. Be very clear.
Had we not gotten the first tranche
of Mark Meadows
text messages
on the January 6th committee,
it would have been much harder for us
to get to the answers
that we eventually got to.
He turned over
an initial tranche of text
and then he quit
cooperating with the committee.
But in that initial tranche,
we saw the text with,
you know, the Fox News host.
We saw the text with members of Congress
and other actors that allowed us
then to be able to connect dots.
He was really the all star
on that committee
in terms of the evidence provided.
So if he now goes in
front of a grand jury
and is fully cooperative,
I got to tell you,
I mean, the stuff we got from him
will pale in comparison
to a truthful testimony
by him in front of a grand jury.
Ellie was lounging here
while you were talking.
He's actually which is back with us.
I want to ask you, Ellie.
John Dean
mentioned the idea of a deal
for the former president.
What what how what would that entail?
Yeah.
So there's a couple things
that that could be that could mean
he took a guilty plea
and in exchange is testifying
and hoping to get a reduced sentence.
That's sort of your standard
cooperator deal.
But they would have to know
that Mark Meadows
actually committed a crime.
The other option,
the sort of less serious version of
that is what I talked about before,
the immunity deal, meaning
we're going to give you a free pass,
not going to make you
plead guilty to a crime,
but we're not going to use
your testimony against you.
And now you have to testify carefully
and to the point that Representative
Kinzinger is making that so important is
Meadows did cooperate with the test
when he gave them that dynamic,
all his text, which were remarkable.
But then he stopped
cooperating with the committee
sort of midstream
and so left a lot hanging out there.
And Adam,
as Adam correctly,
says, prosecutors are going to
be able to get all of that.