DIFFERENCES AROUND THE WORLD?
IT MIGHT COME DOWN SYMPTOM KEY
CULTURAL DIFFERENCES.
JOINING US IS MALAYSIALEICHELLE
THE AUTHOR OF "RULE MAKERS, RULE
BREAKERS, HOW TIGHT AND LOOSE
CULTURES WIRE OUR WORLD."
PROFESSOR, GOOD EVENING.
>> HI THERE.
>> LET’S REMIND PEOPLE OF WHAT
YOU MEAN BY A TIGHT OR LOOSE
CULTURE.
HERE ARE SOME NATIONS THAT YOU
HAVE CLASSIFIED AS EITHER TIGHT
OR LOOSE CULTURES.
A TIGHT CULTURE MIGHT BE
SOMEPLACE LIKE JAPAN, SOUTH
KOREA, CHINA OR SINGAPORE.
LOOSE CULTURES PLACES LIKE
BRAZIL, THE U.S., THE U.K., AND
SPAIN.
YOU CAN SEE THEM THERE ON THE
MAP.
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A
TIGHT CULTURE AND LOOSE CULTURE
AS YOU DEFINE IT?
>> ALL CULTURES HAVE SOCIAL
NORMS OR UNWRITTEN RULES FOR
SOCIAL BEHAVIORS.
WE WEAR CLOTHES, WE LEAVE THE
HOUSE, WE DON’T STEAL, WE DON’T
SING LOUDLY AND DANCE IN THE
LIBRARY, AND WE DO THESE THINGS
BECAUSE IT HELPS OUR SOCIETY
FUNCTION.
THEY HE KEEP US TOGETHER.
BUT WHAT WE KNOW IS SOME
CULTURES ABIDE BY SOCIAL NORMS
QUITE STRICTLY, TIGHT CULL AND
OTHERS ARE LOOSE.
THEY HAVE MORE RELAXED ATTITUDES
TOWARDS RULE BREAKERS.
THESE DIFFERENCES AREN’T RANDOM.
WE FOUND THAT CULTURES WITH
HISTORIES OF COLLECTIVE THREAT,
CHRONIC NATURAL DISASTERS,
DISEASE, FAMINE AND INVASIONS
HAVE STRICTERS RULES TO HELP
FACILITATE ORDER AND COHESION.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, IT MAKES
GOOD EVOLUTIONARY SENSE.
FOLLOWING THE RULES HELPS US
SURVIVE CHAOS AND CRISIS.
LOOSER GROUPS THAT HAVE GENERALLY SPEAKING FACE FEWER
GENERALLY SPEAKING FACE FEWER
CHRONIC THREATS CAN BE AFFORD TO
BE MORE PERMISSIVE.
REALLY NEITHER TIGHT OR LOOSE IS
NECESSARILY GROOD
NECESSARILY GOOD OR BAD.
LOOSE CULTURES ARE THE BASTIONS
OF CREATIVITY AND TOLERANCE.
THE QUESTION IS WHICH CULTURAL
CODE IS BETTER SUITED TO A
COLLECTIVE THREAT.
>> WHAT DID RURYOUR RESEARCH FIN
IN TERMS HOW THESE DIFFERENT
CULTURES DEALT WITH COVID?
>> WE STUDIED 57 COUNTRIES UP TO
MID-OCTOBER AND WE FOUND THAT
LOOSE CULTURES REALLY STRUGGLED
WITH COVID.
THEY HAVE FIVE TIMES THE NUMBER
OF CASES AND ALMOST NINE TIMES
THE NUMBER OF DEATHS.
CULTURES, OF COURSE, NOT THE
ONLY FACTOR PREDICTING CASES AND
DEATHS.
WE INCLUDED WEALTH AND
INEQUALITY, CLIMATE, THE AGE OF
THE POPULATION, DENSITY AMONG
MANY OTHER FACTORS.
BUT CULTURE MATTERS IN
CONTROLLING FOR THESE THINGS.
BUT WHAT WAS REALLY QUITE
ASTONISHING WAS THAT EVEN THOUGH
LOOSE CULTURES WERE FACING FAR
MORE THREAT, THEY WERE REPORTING
BEING LESS FEARFUL OF COVID-19.
70% OF PEOPLE IN TIGHT CULTURES
WERE SCARED.
AND SO FEAR IS REALLY IMPORTANT
FOR TIGHTENING, BUT THIS DIDN’T
HAPPEN AS MUCH IN LOOSE
CULTURES, AND WE CAN CALL THIS
KIND OF AN EVOLUTIONARY
MISMATCH.
TRAITS THAT ARE GREAT IN SOME
ENVIRONMENTS LIKE RULE BREAK
SOMETHING GREAT FOR INNOVATION
ARE MALL ADAPTIVE IN OTHER
CONTEXTS.
>> WHEN YOU SAY PEOPLE ARE LESS
AFRAID OF COVID, THAT SEEMED TO
BE ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IN THE
U.S. IN TERMS OF PEOPLE NOT
SEEMING TO GIVE A DAMN.
I WONDER HOW WE CONTEXTUALIZE
THE WAY VARIOUS AMERICANS
REACTED TO COVID IN THIS COUNTRY
NOT JUST IN TERMS OF FEAR, BUT
IN TERMS OF EVEN CARING, IN
TERMS OF JUST HAVING THE DECENCY
TO WEAR A MASK.
>> WELL, THINKI THINK THEY ARE
INTERCONNECTED.
WHEN WE FEEL FEAR, FEEL THE
DANGER, GET THAT SIGNAL, IT
NATURALLY PRODUCES THE
WILLINGNESS TO FOLLOW RULES.
LOOSE CULTURES HAVE UNREALISTIC
OPTIMISM.
IT’S NOT GREATLY MATCHED TO A
PANDEMIC.
WE ALSO TEND TO BE REACTIVE WHEN
PEOPLE TELL US TO ABIDE BY
RULES.
WE ARE USED TO HAVING FREEDOM
AND PERMISSIVENESS.
SO WE HAVE A KIND OF REACTION.
WE HAVE FEAR OF LOCKDOWNS AND
MASKS THAN WE DO OF THE VIRUS.
NOT ALL LOOSE CULTURES MISS THE
SIGNAL.
I THINK NEW ZEALAND IS A GREAT
EXAMPLE OF AN AMBIDEXTROUS
CULTURE.
THEY WERE FAMOUSLY LOOSE KIWIS,
BUT THEY PIVOTED AND TIGHTENED
AND PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO
SACRIFICE THAT FREEDOM FOR MORE
CONSTRAINT WITH, IN THIS CASE,
THEY DID A GREAT JOB.
>> YEAH BETWEEN DEALING WITH
COVID, THE CHRISTCHURCH
SHOOTING, CREDITED AS ONE OF THE
REASONS PRIME MINISTER JACINDA
ARDEN WON ANOTHER TEAM.
MAYBE WE WILL CALL IT A SNUG
CULTURE.
I DON’T KNOW.
WITH REGARDS TO CHINA, CHINA IS
NOT JUST A TIGHT CULTURE.
IT’S A REPRESSIVE CULTURE.
IT’S MADE IT HARDER TO FIGHT THE
PANDEMIC BECAUSE WE CAN’T GET
COMPLETE INFORMATION FROM THE
CHINESE GOVERNMENT ABOUT WHAT’S
GOING ON IN WUHAN, WHAT’S
HAPPENING IN THE MARKETS THERE,
WHETHER SCIENTISTS FROM THE
WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION HAVE
GOTTEN PROPER ACCESS TO THE DATA
THEY NEED.
IT FEELS LIKE TIGHTNESS OR A
LOOSENESS CAN BE A BLESSING IN
SOME AREAS AND A REAL CURSE IN
OTHERS.
>> EXACTLY.
I THINK THAT’S WHERE HAVING BOTH
ORDER AND OPENNESS ARE REALLY
IMPORTANT FOR CULTURES AS WE’RE
TRYING TO NAVIGATE COLLECTIVE
THREAT.
WE NEED LEADERSHIP TO HELP US BE
ABLE TO TODO THAT.
WE CAN RISE TO THE OCCASION WITH
GREAT LEADERSHIP AND WILLINGNESS
TO FOLLOW RULES.
TO YOUR POINT, TIGHT CULTURES
REALLY CAN BE VERY REPRESSIVE.
WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT CULTURES
BECOME REPRESSIVE.
WE CONTROL FOR AUTHORITARIANISM
IN OUR DATA.
WE ARE LOOKING AT PEOPLE’S
WILLINGNESS TO SACRIFICE FREEDOM
TEMPORARILY.
WE NEED TO FIGHT THIS THREAT BY
TEMPORARILY TIGHTENING AND THEN