WHERE DOES IT GO FROM HERE, HOW
DOES IT RESPOND?
>> JOINING US NOW IS TO MUSCLE
WAS HE IS THE FORMER PRESIDENT
OF ESTONIA.
HE ALSO SERVED AS THE FORMER
ESTONIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE
UNITED STATES AND TO CANADA.
MISTER PRESIDENT, THANK YOU FOR
BEING WITH US HERE TONIGHT.
FOR THE IMMEDIATE FUTURE AND
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DAYS OR
WEEKS NOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK
THE RESPONSE FROM THE WEST
SHOULD BE TO RUSSIA.
IS IT MORE SANCTIONS, IS IT
EUROPE SAYING OR SHUTTING OFF
THE GAS AND OIL FLOW.
SPECIFICALLY, WHAT WOULD YOU
LIKE TO SEE DONE IN A DAYS TO
COME?
>> WELL THE MOST PRESSING
MATTER OF COURSE IS SHUTTING
OFF THE MONEY SUPPLY TO
RUSSIANS AND THAT REALLY I MEAN
THEY'RE GETTING SEVERAL BILLION
A WEEK FROM SELLING GAS
PRIMARILY TO FREE COUNTRIES.
GERMANY, AUSTRIA AND HUNGARY.
SO THAT WOULD BE THE TOUGHEST
BLOW.
WHERE WE SEE OTHER ACTIVITIES,
EQUALLY FORCEFULLY'S FOR
EXAMPLE, OPEN IN OPEN SOURCE
INTELLIGENCE IDENTIFYING THE
TROOPS WHO ARE IN PLACE TODAY
WHEN THE RUSSIANS BASICALLY
PUSH BACK AND SAY, THIS WAS ALL
MADE UP NOW THE NEW YORK TIMES
HAS JUST PUBLISHED OLD AERIAL
PHOTOGRAPHY OF THE BODIES LYING
THERE.
SO THE RUSSIANS ARE BEING
INSISTENTLY EMBARRASSED BY
THEIR OWN PROPAGANDA FAILURES.
>> YOU UNDERSTAND THIS WELL,
HAVING BEEN THE PRESIDENT OF
ESTONIA AND HAVING BEEN THE
AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES
IN CANADA.
WHAT IS SURPRISING ABOUT WHAT
YOU JUST MENTIONED IS THE
CONSPIRACY THEORY THAT PUSHED
BACK BY RUSSIA ABOUT HOW THE
UKRAINIANS THEMSELVES HAVE
KILLED THOSE PEOPLE.
AND PLANTED THEIR BODIES.
IT GETS THEM TO THE AMERICAN
CONSPIRACY THEORY FAR-RIGHT
ECHO CHAMBER AS WELL.
THERE ARE AMERICANS SAYING, HOW
DO YOU REALLY KNOW THAT THE
RUSSIANS KILLED THESE PEOPLE?
HOW DO YOU REALLY KNOW THOSE
ARE ATROCITIES?
MAYBE IT JUST PROPAGANDA.
>> WELL WE SAW THIS ALREADY IN
2014 WHEN THE RUSSIANS SHOT
DOWN THE M.A. 17 AIRLINER WHERE
THEY MADE ALL KINDS OF CLAIMS
LIKE ACTUALLY THE PLANE HAD
BEEN FILLED BEFOREHAND WITH
COURSES BY CIA.
NO ONE BOUGHT THAT, MOST
SERIOUS PEOPLE DON'T BUY THAT.
NOW TO, WHEN YOU KEEP COMING UP
WITH EVIDENCE AS THE UNITED
STATES, THE TIMES JUST PUBLISH
WITH OLD PHOTOGRAPHY --
THREE-WEEK-OLD AERIAL PICTURES
OF BODY IS LYING IN THE STREET
THEN ONCE AGAIN THAT HAS BEEN
DEBUNKED >> AND THAT IS ALWAYS
A PROBLEM WE HAVE TO FACE THAT
PEOPLE COME UP WITH WILD
WIDE-EYED CONSPIRACY THEORIES
AND THEN IT UNFORTUNATELY
BECOMES THE TASK OF THE TRUTH
TELLERS TO PUSH BACK ON THOSE
KINDS OF WILD CONSPIRACIES.
AND IN THIS CASE, IT'S QUITE
CLEAR.
THE RUSSIANS REALLY BLEW IT
WITH THEIR CLAIMS.
>> SO AT THIS POINT, A FEW DAYS
AGO, JUST A FEW DAYS AGO WE'VE
SEEN THE CONVERSATION BETWEEN
THE RUSSIANS AND THE UKRAINIANS
AND UKRAINE THEY CONTINUE VIA
TELECONFERENCE.
THERE IS REAL OPTIMISM ABOUT
POSSIBLE PEACE TALKS OR EVEN
DISCUSSIONS ON THE RUSSIANS
ABOUT A MEETING BETWEEN
ZELENSKYY AND VLADIMIR PUTIN.
IS THERE A DIPLOMATIC PATH
FORWARD HERE?
>> WELL I THINK THE DISCOVERY
OF THE MASSIVE WAR CRIMES MAKES
IT VERY DIFFICULT POLITICALLY
FOR PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TO GIVE
AWAY TOO MUCH IN DISCUSSIONS.
I THINK THAT THIS IS SO
COMPLETELY HORRIFIED NOT ONLY
THE CRANIUM IN PUBLIC BUT THE
REST OF THE WEST.
THAT THE PRESSURES HE WAS UNDER
UNTIL JUST A FEW DAYS AGO TO
MAKE CONCESSIONS HAVE I THINK
LIGHTENED CONSIDERABLY.
AND FOR HIMSELF, LET'S FACE IT,
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN UKRAINE AND
RUSSIA FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE
IS THAT UKRAINE HAS A
DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED
PRESIDENT.
AND HE HAS TO, HE CAN'T DO
THINGS THE WAY PUTIN CAN.
HE HAS A FREE PRESS AND IF HE'S
GOING TO MAKE CONCESSIONS, HIS
PUBLIC WILL GO, WE'LL GET VERY
ANGRY.
HIS ELECTORATE WILL GET VERY
ANGRY.
AND CERTAINLY AFTER ALL OF
THESE HORRIFIC PICTURES AND
THIS EVIDENCE OF WHAT HAS BEEN
GOING ON.
AND MOREOVER, SEEMS TO HAVE
BEEN GOING ON IN OTHER CITIES
AND TOWNS IN UKRAINE AS WELL.
IT WILL MAKE THE PEACE PROCESS
FAR MORE DIFFICULT THAN IT HAS
BEEN OF TILL NOW.
>> TOOMAS ILVES IS THE FORMER
PRESIDENT OF ESTONIA, FORMER