Tell me what you guys have been playing a lot.
Like, we just had a month long break basically, right?
There was 5.24, there's just, you know
-Uh huh.
everyone's kind of soaking in the Preseason.
You are about to jump out of your chair.
What do you got?
-Yeah.
I've been playing a ton of Poppy.
Poppy?
-I love Poppy. -Oh man.
Yeah?
-I think Poppy is incredibly strong.
Like, everything she does, and she is so versatile.
You can use her as a engage, you can disengage
and just peel for people
and she stops a lot of peoples options
which I think is one of the best things
and worst things in a PvP game
because you get to read the player easier.
You're just like, "Oh, you can't use a dash now.
So, you have to flash or you have to fight me."
So, I think that she's really cool in that regard
but she's probably a little strong.
I've been playing a lot of
I've been playing Poppy as well, I'm still playing Zac
I think he's good. I think jungle's not bad right now.
There's like, Elise, Lee Sin...
[Laughter]
-Kindred
That's, I'm sorry, that's the most Season 4 thing.
It's like, "Oh, I think jungle's in a really good
spot right now. There's Elise, Lee Sin, hmm...
-They're fun. They're entertaining champs.
What? something else maybe?"
-Dude, I would rather Elise vs Lee Sin
-repeatedly for the rest of my life
-than see a Warwick in my game, ever.
[Laughter]
Well, you bring that point up about dueling junglers
which is why I want to get your thoughts on
Runic Echoes, right?
Like, we have this, it is a new item for an item
that was already a new item, right?
Like, relatively speaking and so, how do you feel
about this Runic Echoes item?
So, I think Runic Echoes is... It's pretty hard to judge
I think, without actually testing it out, because
it's going to be a lot less dueling power, you know.
Right now, the only junglers who actually get
Runeglaive, that are viable, are Elise and Nidalee
and traditionally in their duels they get a lot of procs
so, I feel like they'll lose a decent amount of damage
so, it will be harder to duel with them
but I think the move speed might actually make
some other champions viable, because 10%
is a lot of move speed and if you get
Boots of Swiftness too, you're just
moving way too fast around the map.
We like, had some internal play test with like
Fiddlesticks running around and like, you know
the past few patches he's been pretty weak, right?
And in our internal test, he is just like
running around at what feels like light speed
compared to you're used to on a Fiddlesticks
and just like, bursting people with Echoes
with his ult and just killing people.
Actually, my take on these items is that
Runeglaive did something where you had some
dueling power and it kind of helped you clear
but then, aside from that, it didn't really
accomplish too much for you, but what
Runic Echoes is going to do is it's going to be
a more holistic item for AP junglers.
It actually has more AP on it.
It's got 20 more AP, so people who are missing
that early game spike of having the Sheen
aren't going to miss it as much as you would think.
They miss some CDR, but then they get movement
speed, which is so good in the jungle.
And also, if you're a Fizz, because I know there are
some Fizz jungle players out there who are a little
upset, because they think
that their Sheen is so delayed.
Well, when you get Runic Echoes and Lich Bane
it's better. You have 7% more move speed
and you end up with a .2 extra AP ratio
than you did before.
Sure, your Luden's is more upfront damage
when you first buy this item, but then also for
other people who aren't Fizz, it unlocks
other options like Elise, if you want to get tanky
Iceborn Gauntlet is something you can take now
when you couldn't have done that before.
So, I think this is a good item
that opens more things up.
You know, we have Aiden saying things like
"Oh, well they sometimes are
not good at gap closing or sometimes
not good at ganking or they have bad first clears.
Are these intended trade-offs of mages?
So, I would say that
I wouldn't specify exactly what an intended
trade-off of any mage must be
but I would say that like
-Right.
I think it is good for... Two things are good
about having them in the jungle
if we can get them there.
One is that, just class diversity.
If we open up different classes to different positions
we create an ecosystem where like
if you look at Kindred, right?
Like, Kindred is a jungle marksmen and so
now it is, you're still probably going to run
marksmen in the bot lane, but like
you're maybe more likely to run like
a Graves or a Mordekaiser down there.
Someone shorter range...
So, he's a little non-standard relative to the cast.
Exactly, so like, opening up different positions
to different roles, I think, is really good.
And so, enabling mages and on top of that like
we have to be careful about trade-offs
for mages in the jungle, because on one hand
I actually think it's really good design-wise
for every character to have meaningful trade-offs.
It's like, if they don't then like, what's their...
Just kind of a core tenet of things, right?
Yeah, and I would argue like
I know you love Elise and Lee Sin, but I would argue
at sometimes one of the problems I've had
with them is that they didn't express meaningful
trade-offs in their jungling and so it basically
shut out everybody else, right?
That's true, I mean, sometimes they
can be oppressive, but at the same time
you know, I would rather see Elise vs Lee Sin
every single game then, you know
play them against like, an AFK farming Warwick
or something, because that's just so boring.
Like, it doesn't feel like entertaining
gameplay to me.
I guess my response to that is, I think that
is a problem with Warwick's kit
but it's also important that characters
do have trade-offs, we just have to make sure
they have the right trade-offs, because
is bad at jungling being a jungler's trade-off
means they don't jungle, right?
So, they have to have a trade-off somewhere else
and be good at jungling.
Yeah, so we're talking a lot about trade-offs
and one place I have not seen many trade-offs
is within the Keystone Masteries.
Oh!
Specifically relative to Thunderlord's Decree
where, it was like right after we had shipped
the patch, I think a lot of us thought it would
take off and I was, personally I was like
"Ah, I mean it seems good. I don't know
how good it is." And I tabbed and did C10
in a row and I was like, "Huh?"
It's that good.
There we are. We're living in that world.
So, how many Thunderlord's Decree's
are you seeing in your games?
I've seen a lot of Gypsy...
Like, Thunderlord's Decree's.
Oh! Ha.
The Gypsylord's Decree.
Some games I'll see like,
up to two players not using it.
Wait, are these players losing?
-Up to two! [Laughter]
Yeah, I mean, sometimes top laners take Grasp.
I don't know if they're trolling or what, but...
You report them after the game, right?
100%, yeah.
So, I mean, how do we feel about the state
of Keystones as well relevant to the Thunderlord
because Thunderlord itself is curiously
not nerfed in this patch, but there are a lot
of other changes we have.
Okay, so the deal with that is
I'm just going to say it
I screwed up on the balance of these last patch.
Like, we were trying to solve a lot of things
and we did a lot of balance changes
and we left Thunderlord's where it was and
honestly, one of the reasons we're not nerfing
it this patch is we think that one of the big
problems is we went too far on the other Masteries.
It wasn't that we made Thunderlord's too OP
it's that we made all the
other Masteries kind of weak.
We actually really like, even though Thunderlord's
is in every game, it's like, I really like
a lot of the stuff it does.
It's a huge high moment, you get this
super cool zap particle. It's exciting, it's fun.
When were Masteries exciting and fun?
Like, never. So, that's really great for us and so
we'd like to buff up the other stuff.
I thought Thunderlord's was, I mean, it was strong
obviously, you know, it was in every game a lot.
Yeah.
But, I think Precision was probably
the real issue there.
I think that if Precision was in the Offense Tree
you wouldn't have seen as many Thunderlord's
well, Ferocity, sorry.
Yeah.
I'm using the old terms.
You know, this guy still says Wraiths?
[Laughter]
Come on grandpa, get with the times.
I think a lot of it is the fact that other Keystones
just aren't really that good, you know?
Sometimes they take Strength of Ages
on tank junglers and stuff.
Grasp is useful on top laners who are
going to be scraping a lot, but
honestly, it was, Fervor was good and
Warlord's Bloodlust were good on...
and there were some edge cases where
they were too good, you know?
Like, Tryndamere just, was way too good with it
when they applied on the creeps.
Yeah, with the Warlord's, yeah.
And so, it felt like those Masteries just kind of
got gutted, because it was too good on
specific champions and so we're sort of just
left over with Thunderlord
and I don't really have an issue with Thunderlord
it doesn't feel too OP or anything, but
it just seems like the other ones could
use a little bit more like, versatility.
When I look at Keystone Masteries I think of
things like what you are talking about right now
where I think that when you take a Keystone
it's supposed to be something where I'm making
a decision saying, "You know what? This is how
I like to play League of Legends.
I like to burst somebody and then
run or chase them down." Right?
Or, "I like to take Thunderlord's, because
I want to be able to trade with them
and then get out and do it again in 20 seconds."
What is the overall goal of Keystone Masteries?
Is it player expression
because that's my opinion of it?
Or is it just something where we are trying to
make it so that some champions have more
things in late game or early...
So, to speak to that, one of the big goals
is player expression.
It's saying like, "Hey, I really like playing Talon
but you know what? I think that I like, burst fine
I don't want Thunderlord's, but man
if I could just like, get out after a fight
wouldn't that be cool?"
And now you can, because you don't get slowed
with Stormraider's Surge.
And so, player expression is a big goal.
That said, because of the constraints of the
Masteries system, we have these Mastery Trees
there can only be so many Keystones
before we run out of space.
There's also things we have to consider
where it's like, the primary goal
the most important thing is that
at least every champion in the game
has at least one Keystone that they feel good about.
They feel, "Wow, this is for me."
There is another thing that I know
wakes you up at night and keeps you
screaming towards the sky is Frost Queen's Claim.
Oh! That.
That's a fun item.
Fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun.
-[Laughter]
Real fun, real fun. Love it on support.
I just buy it on all of them.
-Yeah.
And with my mid laners. All of them.
Well, so I, I mean, we all had that reaction.
I think it's easy to have that reaction
but what I actually want to get to is like
what is it doing that is too much?
Because spooky ghosts have kind of always
been a cool effect in the game
but I more want to focus this conversation
on kind of understanding what we really want
out of this item, because I think no one can deny
it's clearly ubiquitous, it is very much everywhere.
I think it's mostly an issue when mid laners
are getting it, just because all the other AP items
are pretty weak right now, you know?
There's no real reason to get a Morello
over a Frost Queen unless you super need
a healing debuff.
The fact that everyone has it and it's so strong
I think it would be better, you know, just taking it
off the income item, sort of how it was before.
Just make a good item that has the spooky ghosts
because it is, you know, a pretty interesting item
you can use to catch people out, but when it's
just so easily accessible and I'm getting hit by
like, two or three of them per game to the point
where like, I need Swiftness Boots to not just die
anytime I get ghosted, it's a pretty sad time.
That's the thing for me that I don't like
about Frost Queen's. Like, we're seeing it
in lanes and stuff and the nerf is
might push it out of lanes, because
the mana regen and stuff, but it's supposed to be
an item that's going to go chase people down
and now it scales with distance, but
it occupies too much space, it's too powerful
right? That's the problem with it, is that it's too
powerful for what it does, the cost and that's why
I have the Equinox versus Face of the Mountain.
The Face of the Mountain active, you can sit there
and go, "Okay, I'll actually not take that
because I want an extra ward every time I back
so I have four, and I also want to be able
to go 800 gold sooner towards my Aegis
for my team."
Right.
That's like a trade-off I'm like, "That sounds
like a good trade-off."
This is like extra wards versus dominating.
-Yeah, there are times you may want one
-sometimes you may want the other
-or something like that.
I still think it's going to be overwhelmingly
purchased over Eye of the Watchers
because it's just really powerful even in just
stat efficiency.
So, what I would say from a design side is like
power is one thing about this item
but I think one thing that it's actually even more
scary to me as a designer about this item isn't
necessarily the raw power, but the amount of
situations it's useful in, right?
Where it's basically, when you get this item
it's like, "Okay, well what do I want to do
when they're diving on me?" Push the button
and they slowed them and escaped.
"What do I want to do when I'm chasing
them in lane?" Push the button, they escape.
"What do I want to do if I don't have any idea
where they are?" Push the button and go catch them.
It's like, any time you push that button is honesty
a good time to push that button, because
even if ghosts don't hit anyone, it's powerful
because you know the direction they're in
-And that you're forcing them away, right? Yeah.
and that they're not closing on you.
I think it just has too much in it so
I would either like to see the gold income hit
well, I guess just keep the passive that the
non-upgraded had, where if you kill minions
you lose the passive for a while
because that would keep it in check for laners.
You'd still get some gold out of it
but it wouldn't be like, you're playing Brand
you clear the wave and then you hit them
while they're farming under turret and you
get an extra 45 gold, because that's pretty crazy.
One thing I do want to touch on really quick
because I worry it's like oh, people are going
to hear this conversation and be like
"Oh, Frost Queen's Claim is toxic
and it's a terrible item, we should get rid of it!"
And I don't think that's what we're saying here
because honestly, the item is like, very fun to use
and has great high moments and is a cool item.
It's really just a matter of like, we need to think
about where it should be good
and what should be really powerful about it
and emphasize that, while then taking down
the other stuff and that's what these nerfs
are going for in their direction.
Right, there's one change I think we've
completely overlooked, which is
the ghosts now get more spooky as they travel.
Ooh!
Wait, do they?
Yeah.
Yeah dude, they get spookier and bigger.
Now, as they go, it doesn't change their hitbox
at all, but now you're like, "Oh God!"
They're like, "No!"
"We have failed."
I'll have to add VO for the ghosts.
"No!"