Geoff: We have new information
about the classified documents
found at former president
trump's mar-a-lago property in
Florida, and there are new
questions about whether all of
the sensitive materials taken
from the white house have been
returned.
To discuss the latest
developments, I'm joined by Neal
katyal, former acting U.S.
Solicitor general.
It is good to have you with us.
Mr. Katyal: Thank you for having
me.
Geoff: The doj is again asking
trump's lawyers to return all of
the sensitive, classified
documents, this is after the FBI
already retrieved thousands of
documents from mar-a-lago in
August with their search.
Would the doj be asking this if
they didn't know for sure trump
still had classified documents
in his possession?
Mr. Katyal: I don't think they
need to know for sure, but I
think they must have some good
indication that Donald to this
day still is holding very
sensitive documents that are
either classified or otherwise
national defense information.
We already know that trump has
held onto a whole bunch of
highly sensitive documents
involving human source
information like who our spies
are in other governments,
perhaps nuclear information.
We know it includes other things
that aren't classified but are
sensitive like Donald Trump's
letters to the north Korean
leadership and the like.
All of this, I used to be a
national security advisor at the
justice department, all of this
I couldn't even just look at in
my office in the justice
department.
The idea that you could bring it
to your house in Florida or your
club in New Jersey or trump
tower in Manhattan boggles the
mind.
Geoff: Given that, why can't the
doj indict with what they
already have?
Based on your experience, what
could come next?
Could we be looking at a search
of one of his other properties?
Mr. Katyal: Yes to all of the
above.
If this were anyone else there
would already be an indictment.
The evidence is overwhelming,
not just that trump had these
documents that he held onto them
and told his lawyers he had
turned over everything and they
were supposed to certify that
when it was obviously not true.
The search warrant was granted
and executed after trump's
lawyers certified everything was
turned over, and though and
behold, they found hundreds and
hundreds of pages of highly
sensitive national security
information afterwards.
So I do think right now the
justice department does have
overwhelming evidence that would
prevent them to indict.
I suspect what is going on in
their minds is we could do it
now, but why don't we get a
complete picture before we do
the indictment.
You can always supersede an
indictment with more information
later on but I think what they
are thinking is let's try to dor
out I's and cross our T's first.
I don't think this is something
Merrick Garland would look the
other way on.
Anybody else, indictment would
be a certainty.
Geoff: Let's talk more about
trump's legal team.
I know they are deeply divided
over how to handle the latest
request to turn over documents.
Some have advocated for
cooperation and others want to
take a more adversarial stance.
The lawyer who has sort of
pushed in favor of cooperation
has been increasingly sidelined
based on reporting.
What does that say to you about
the direction the trump team is
taking?
Mr. Katyal: I think Donald Trump
has a difficult time hiring a
quality lawyers, not just
because he doesn't pay them, but
because he asks them to do
things that put them in legal
jeopardy.
Almost every attorney that trump
has hired has had to hire their
own attorneys, leading to the
joke that Maga actually stands
for "Making attorneys get
attorneys."
We see it in this mar-a-lago
investigation with at least a
couple of the attorneys trump
has hired now having to hire
their own counsel because they
are targets of a federal, or at
least subjects of a federal
criminal investigation looking
into whether they lied to
federal investigators.
So there is a very complex
determination that should be
made here.
I think every attorney I know if
they were representing Donald
Trump would say let's fall on
our sword and say I, Donald
Trump, made a mistake, I am
holding these documents, and
basically beg for forgiveness.
Instead trump rewards what he
always rewards, which is
adversarial fighters who are
fighting for no good reason.
Here is a really good
illustration -- trump
orchestrated with his lawyers
this whole get a special master
appointed to try and stop the
criminal investigation.
What happened?
He got the special master and
the special master told him what
he did not want to hear and the
U.S. Court of appeals, our
second-highest court, has flatly
rejected all of trump's demands
and has said everything in the
investigation thus far appears
to be in good faith and trump's
rights are not being violated.
Far from stopping the
investigation, trumps
adversarial tactics have led to
now a court of appeals decision
that blesses the investigation
into Donald Trump, and that
decision had two different
judges out of the three
appointed by none other than
Donald Trump himself.
Geoff: Thank you so much as
always for your insights.
Mr. Katyal: Thank you.