SCHOOL OF LAW AND GLENN KIRSHNER A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND
BOXING ENTHUSIAST AND PAUL
CHARTON.
CHARTON. GLENN, TO YOU FIRST.
WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF
THESE DOCUMENTS RELATED TO
SKOEEN’S PREVIOUS TESTIMONY?
TO ME IT IS SO HAIRY AND IT
DOESN’T SHOW HE IS A GOOD GUY
AND DECIDED TO TELL THE TRUTH.
>> I’VE SEEN COOPERATING
WITNESSES FALL INTO THE TRAP
WHERE THEY BEGIN TO BELIEVE
THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
LET’S FACE IT.
MICHAEL COHEN IS A LIAR.
HE’S BEEN A LIAR FOR A VERY LONG
TIME.
TIME. HE’S BEEN A FIXER AND A THUG AND
ENFORCER AND DID HE ALL THAT FOR
WHO?
WHO? FOR DONALD TRUMP.
FOR A DECADE.
PROSECUTORS DON’T GET TO PICK
THEIR COOPERATING WITNESSES
BECAUSE IF WE DID, I COULD TELL
YOU, STEPH, I WOULD WALK OUT OF
THE DOOR AND GO UP TO THE SHILOH
BAPTIST CHURCH AT NOON ON SUNDAY
AND WOULD YOU WAIT FOR THE
CONGREGATION TO POOR OUT AND
PICK THREE CHURCH-GOING
GRANDMOTHERS AS MY WITNESSES.
I NEVER GOTT TO DO THAT.
I HAD TO DEVELOP AS COOPERATING
WITNESSES AND THUGS AND KILLERS
AND LIARS AND BUSINESS CHEATS
JUST LIKE MICHAEL COHEN IS.
THE PROBLEM IS WE DO ALL WE CAN
TO CLEAN THEM UP AND IMPRESS
UPON THEM THEY HAVE TO TELL THE
WHOLE TRUTH.
WHOLE TRUTH. DON’T EVEN FUDGE A LITTLE BIT.
DON’T TELL A LITTLE LIE, EVEN IF
IT IS A LITTLE LIE THAT MAKES
DONALD TRUMP LOOK MORE GUILTY
THAN HE IS.
WHY?
WHY? BECAUSE THEN YOU DAMAGE YOUR OWN
CREDIBILITY AND YOU HURT THE
GOVERNMENT’S CASE.
GOVERNMENT’S CASE. I THINK MICHAEL COHEN HAS HURT
THE GOVERNMENT AND THE COUNTRY’S
CASE A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE IT
DOES LOOK LIKE HE CONTINUES TO
FUDGE.
FUDGE. WHEN HE’S LIVED THE LIFE HE’S
LIVED, IT IS KIND OF HARD TO
PURGE ALL OF THIS ILLEGALITY AND
FALSE LIFE OUT OF HIM AND HE MAY
HAVE GOTTEN CAUGHT UP.
>> I DON’T KNOW, GLENN.
THERE IS A LOT OF THINGS IN THIS
WORLD I WOULD CONSIDER HARD.
I’M NOT SURE I THINK IT IS SO
HARD TO TELL THE TRUTH.
KEN, DOES IT APPEAR HE COMMITTED
PERJURY AND IF HE DID WHAT DOES
THAT DO TO THE REST OF HIS
TESTIMONY?
TESTIMONY? >> WELL, HE SAID THAT HE NEVER
ASKED FOR A PARDON.
PERJURY IS DIFFICULT TO PROVE.
HE COULD SAY I DIDN’T PERSONALLY
ASK FOR A PARDON.
>> OKAY.
>> OKAY. FINE.
FINE. IF HIS LAWYER DID.
NOT FOR GIGGLES OR FUN, HE DID
IT FOR MICHAEL COHEN.
>> THERE ARE TWO ISSUES HERE.
ONE HAS TO DO WITH WHETHER HE
COULD BE CHARGED CRIMINALLY.
IT IS DIFFICULT TO PROVE THAT
CASE.
CASE. OTHER HAS TO DO WITH HIS
CREDIBILITY IN CONGRESS AND
RIGHT NOW I THINK WE’RE MOVING
INTO A ERA WHERE THE PRESIDENT’S
ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ESTABLISHED
WRONGDOING, WE KNOW FROM THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK HE
WAS PART OF ONE FELONY INVOLVING
MICHAEL COHEN, WE DON’T KNOW IF
THERE IS ANY ADDITIONAL CRIMES
OR WRONGDOING THAT MR. TRUMP
HIMSELF COULD BE LINKED TO.
BUT IT IS HAPPENING NOW IN
CONGRESS.
CONGRESS. WHICH IS A POLITICALLY
ACCOUNTABLE BODY AND IT REALLY
MATTERS IF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC
FEELS THAT THIS PROCESS HAS
INTEGRITY BECAUSE IT IS EITHER
PROBABLY GOING TO COME DOWN TO
AN IMPEACHMENT PROCESS OR
THROWING MR. TRUMP OUT OF OFFICE
AT THE NEXT ELECTION AND IF
THAT -- IF THAT IS THE CASE, HE
CAN’T ESCAPE THE STATUE OF
LIMITATIONS FOR HIS OWN
LIABILITY SO IT DOES MATTER
POLITICALLY WHETHER HE COULD BE
INDICTED AND CHARGED AND TRIED
FOR PERJURY, IF THERE IS A
PERCEPTION THAT HE’S CONTINUING
TO LIE, I DO THINK THAT IS A
PROBLEM FOR THE BROADER CASE FOR
POTENTIAL IMPEACHMENT OR AT
LEAST ACCOUNTABILITY FOR WHAT
HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN THE WHITE
HOUSE WHICH UNDER THE
REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS HAVE
TURNED A BLIND EYE TO.
>> PAUL, WE KNOW THE COOPERATING
WITNESSES ARE RARELY THE SACRED
SISTERS OF NOTRE DAME.
BUT THIS -- COULD THIS BE THE
STRING OF HEARINGS THAT ARE
INVOLVING POTENTIALLY
INVOLVING POTENTIALLY COMPROMISED WITNESSES AND IF
THAT IS THE CASE, HOW DO
DEMOCRATS APPROACH THESE
HEARINGS?
HEARINGS? >> WELL YOU’RE EXACTLY RIGHT,
STEPHANIE.
STEPHANIE. AND AS GLENN SAID, WE USED TO
STAND IN FRONT OF JURIES ALL OF
THE TIME AND SAY SWANS DON’T
SWIM IN SEWERS.
SOW BEGIN WITH THE UNDERSTANDING
HE’S A CONVICTED LIAR AND NOW
LOOK FOR KROOB RATING EVIDENCE.
WHAT MAKES THE ALLEGATIONS ALL
THE MURKIER WE HAVE TO REMEMBER
THESE ARE TRUMP LAWYERS TALKING
TO CONE’S LAWYER AND TALKING TO
A LAWYER BEING ADVISED BY A
LAWYER AND THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO
HEAR CLARIFICATION ON WHAT
HAPPENED HERE IN ORDER FOR HIM
AND THE ALLEGATIONS TO GAIN
GREATER CREDIBILITY.
GREATER CREDIBILITY. AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHAT WILL
WIN OR THE DAY OR FALL THE DAY
IS THE CORROBORATING EVIDENCE.
WHAT EVIDENCE CORROBORATES WHAT
MR. COHEN HAS SAID.
THAT IS WHY CONGRESS IS RIGHT TO
ASK FOR THESE DOCUMENTS AND THAT
IS WHY THE WHITE HOUSE HAS TO
RESPOND WITH THE DOCUMENTS THAT
THEY’RE SEEKING SO WE CAN
DETERMINE, IS MR. COHEN TELLING
THE TRUTH OR IS HE NOT.
>> GLENN, I HAVE TO ASK YOU
ABOUT PAUL MANAFORT.
IT IS SENTENCING DAY.
WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR?
>> I’M LOOKING FOR THE JUDGE TO
IMPOSE PROBABLY TWO DECADES OF
CONFINEMENT ON PAUL MANAFORT.
I SAY THAT WITH NO GLEE IN MY
VOICE.
VOICE. ANY TIME WE SENTENCE OFFENDERS
TO LENGTHY PRISON TERMS IT FEELS
LIKE A LOSE-LOSE.
LOSE FOR THE VICTIMS CERTAINLY
AND LOSE FOR THE DEFENDANT AND
HIS FAMILY.
HIS FAMILY. BUT THIS INDICTMENT REALLY DOES
HAVE A FEEL OF A LIFETIME
ACHIEVEMENT AWARD FOR EVERYTHING
PAUL MANAFORT HAS BEEN DOING
FRANKLY TO THE DETDRYMENT OF OUR
NATIONAL SECURITY AND OF
AMERICA’S INTEREST.
AMERICA’S INTEREST. SO I THINK WE’RE GOING TO SEE A
SENTENCE THAT WILL RESULT IN HIM