Island giveth us thank you so much for
joining us Adamo debates the theme of
our debate is about growth and the way
that it affects people around the world
differently what is your take on this
can we have infinite growth and
prosperity in America in the world
that's disconnected from the limited
amount of resources which include people
that we have also I think it depends on
what kind of growth you have what kind
of prosperity you have I actually do
believe that there is a way to live on
this planet that makes nature better
every time you do something as opposed
to makes it worse every time you do
something which is our current model but
we have to invent that model we have to
create the right tax structures around
that model and you know it is it is
possible to have a carbon tax where you
know that's something we could all do
tomorrow where the price it right even
the worst actions would be regenerative
for the planet in a certain sense if you
could rice it right right you could
afford to plant two trees for every you
know tree cut down you could afford to
and and the equivalent of that in terms
of in terms of emissions I think there
are versions of capitalism which is you
know in a sense just allowing people to
have businesses that are fully
consistent with with the planet and I
think we have a lot of diversity that we
fail to appreciate I was just in the
Netherlands last week it's very clear
that this is a country that is well on
its way to reinventing its basic culture
and life in light of climate change I
mean one of its many names is the Low
Countries right they know that they are
screwed in an in an era of climate and
so you see electric cars everywhere
right you got vegan and vegetarian
restaurants everywhere right and what
was so interesting is like it wasn't a
thing it was just like it wasn't in
America some whatever conversations like
climate change the issue it was like
they understood they seemed to
understand there's just like a new
culture new way of life
then am I going to say that way of life
is inconsistent with the future no I
think they're well on their way to the
future I think I think we need to avoid
telling people that we that you know
they need to stop living if we're gonna
have a planet I think I think there's
better ways to live and I think we
actually those of us who believe in
climate change and believe in fighting
it have failed to do what is the most
important political work here which is
make people more excited about the new
world that they're walking into than the
old world they're giving up people like
their cars for good or ill you know
people me included like their stakes and
you're asking people rightly to give
things up which is what you have to do
but whether it's the transition to a
gender-equal world whether it's the
transition out of plutocracy whether
it's climate you have to sell people on
the new world and make it as exciting as
thrilling you have to show people what
their life will be like in the new world
I think it's incumbent on those of us
who want those changes to happen to
paint people the picture around the
world governments are failing their
people by not providing basic things
roads to be able to drive on health care
to be able to depend on access to
education so that you can better
yourself and get better jobs this is
happening in the global north and the
global south what is broken here is this
a global narrative has capitalism failed
well I don't know that government's not
functioning well is capitalism failing
it's capitalism often capturing but you
know I can't speak of the whole world
because each situation is different I'll
tell you what I know from reporting in
the United States which is first of all
the premise that government doesn't work
is false it's false that you know does
government mess things up as it's slow
and inefficient at certain things sure
government's failed certain things
government also does an amazing number
of things well you know if you actually
think about how your life goes if you
think about why I was able to take that
plane successfully yesterday the number
of things the government is doing
correctly every day air traffic control
which is a massive civilizational
achievement is something none of us ever
think about as part of a government
success
but coca-cola doing like 2% of its
profit in some market for some clean
water initiative even though it probably
poison that water that's okay that's
something that's a success so look I
would I would brought it to say all
institutions have successes and failures
so I actually think we need to reject
the premise first of all the government
is ineffective because millions of
seniors in America get Social Security
checks every month reliably that keeps
them out of poverty and we have a public
school system that virtually you know
ninety percent of kids in the country go
to that is not as successful as it
should be but is an alternative country
then are you saying to us then just do
just deal with what we have
make good make do with with this ailing
failing crickety government and system
support and try your best to make it
better but this is the system that we
live in it's working for some maybe not
all but if you fall through cracks well
that's just you what is it you really
hope that's what I'm saying I think I'm
worried that what I'm putting to you
that you're right there are lots of
people who are getting their v8
Maintenance Allowance there are lots of
people who are able to access health
care in some states especially in
America but there are millions who are
not and there are systemic and
entrenched issues of racism sexism
within these these systems that you're
lording that you're seeing are working
that I think for the person at the end
of the day who if you're a black woman
in America if you're a person of color
in America you are four times less
likely to have a positive birth outcome
because you're black that's systemic
whether that's in a government or in a
health care system or any of these
institutions so I'm not sure you're
gonna sit and be like well at least
there is a health care system and we're
working towards progress if you're hah
because you're living your life and my
point is what you exactly right what
happens to black women is not uniquely
governmental or corporate it is part of
America that's my point right my point
is there is a rhetoric in our time that
government is somehow more of a failure
than the business world I think that is
false I think businesses fail black
women I would argue even more than the
government businesses
loaned sold predatory shaky loans that
and resulted in the financial crisis
that disproportionately hurt black women
who is denying black women coverage it's
private insurance companies etc etc etc
so yes is the government involved sure
but I'm just going to push back against
the rhetoric that government is
inefficient it's not factual and it's
not based on an understanding of how
society actually works I do not think we
need to rest on our laurels I think what
has happened is the biggest winners of
our age are heavily invested in the idea
of a government that does as little as
possible and they have fought for a
government that does as little as
possible but it has no resources that
does not regulate properly etc etc and
we need to push back against them by
pushing for a government that does more
and the reason has to do more is very
important the power of government needs
to be commensurate with the power of big
outside forces in any given age to mess
with people's lives in a way that they
can't fight back okay in the horse and
buggy days there were simply less of
those big forces today you can have your
government making a decision to trade
with China you can have trade because of
the way technology works because of the
way so many things work you can have
your trade massively vanished to China
within two years right that is a force
that no individual is strong enough to
fight alone right
climate change weather changing in your
committee that is a force no one is
powerful to act on alone so yeah like
you're not good at your job you get
fired from your job you got to get
another job like that's a different
situation than dealing with the legacy
of slavery in American life dealing with
sexism dealing with climate change
dealing with economic inequality those
are systemic problems that people are
not powerful enough individually to act
on which is why we have a government to
solve the biggest problems we share one
of the most powerful ideas in your
journalism and in your writing is this
idea that to action change within a
system like capitalism you need those
who are powerful to accept and risk
losing power and that is such a power
I don't really hear very often the idea
that if you are willing to action change
you have to risk lose or you have to
give up a certain amount of your power
can you give me some examples of when in
reality that's happened or when you've
noticed that it's worked effectively
well to clarify I think real change in
many many situations history has
involved the loss of power I do not
think it necessarily involves the
powerful accepting that I think that's a
choice that powerful people have and
usually in history a minority of
powerful people actually recognize that
and in some cases a lie with the
liquidation of some of their own power I
do not think that's a dominant tendency
I don't think we should wait for it but
but but to talk about examples I think
if you think about the factory owners in
the early 20th century who depended on
those really little fingers that
children have to make things right so
productive so cheap so abundant people
he's have a lot of kids back then throw
a couple in the factory you know I don't
think there was a way obviously we had
to get rid of that and we did get rid of
it I don't think there was a way to get
rid of it that would not have involved
costing factory owners likewise
you look at the me2 movement what vision
of actually responding to that would be
able to to propose change without
costing men power right there any at all
men not just the men who do terrible
things right like for there to be the
kind of world of empowered spaces for
women that I think most sensible people
are calling for it involves a loss of
power if particularly the power of
impunity the power of knowing you do
whatever you want and all kinds of
spaces in your life and nothing will
happen and so so many of the real
changes in history have involved people
in power giving up power not because of
vengeance but because problems of power
are often problems metaphorically if
someone's standing on someone else's
neck and there's no way to lift someone
off the ground without affecting and
getting rid of
the person standing on the person's neck
and making them frankly stand them on
their own two feet on the floor and
thank you and give them to us for
talking to their Hut base thank you so
much
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