The American ideal of
limited government is on life support.
Is it time for civil disobedience?
Charles Murray says yes. Murray has been writing on
government overreach for more than 30 years.
His new book, "By The People"
is a blueprint for taking back American liberty.
I sat down with Charles at the American Enterprise Institute to discuss civil
unrest in Baltimore,
the scope of government, and why bureaucrats should wear body cams.
think that the best place disorder start
in your wheelhouse the situation Baltimore
on we're talking about a week after the initial riots
and there's been an enormous amount of debate
has been a huge debate about whether or not it's racist to call people fags
but not a whole lot debating the conversation about the causes of
inter-generational poverty
the reason why these neighborhoods are doing so badly I
and I was wondering if you had a at a take on World
coming from whether the Baltimore situation extreme what
to scream this is all
star I mean I'm I'm old enough to have remembered what what's was like
back in 66 or 67 and Andrew what was we had 16
something like that race riots 1965
right and then we had during that period after that
10 years thereafter we had the recognition the G
there is something really different about inner-city
big city neighborhoods than elsewhere and it was really bad
to grow up in those places now
we're 2050 you have this ride in Baltimore
with exactly the same litany of complaints about what inner-city
baltimore is like the
back in nineteen six right furthermore you have had
they are giving fifty years you have had a most the city's overwhelmingly
democratic control
implementing democratic solutions and then i'm suppose two
being moved when President Obama says
we know how to cure this only we had the will
right go the big news
about the situation in Baltimore
is that it's not news
right it's been with us for a long time and
nostrums that have been proposed by the left
or for that matter most the right yeah arkin do a damn thing about.
but it was interesting you say that the I muster
you know I I monitor a lot of mainstream media
what he called monitoring enemy broadcaster not that's up to you
but I this idea there this talking point just sort of spread like wildfire from
Morning Joe to NPR's all around about
the main causes for the riots
that the kerner commission found fifty years ago and they're like
in easing that these are the same conditions
that we're seeing today in Baltimore and the lack of self-awareness
or are with appreciation of what me the opiate the irony but they don't
appreciate the depth of the irony
that yet maybe fifty years ago excited programs
aren't the solution to these problems and yet that's what you hear over and
over
I have not yet heard anybody refer to this as an example
insanity is doing the same thing over and over
expecting a different route what you get
is the same solutions tried over and over
with slightly different rationalizations for the lack of progress
and the explanation for the social science perspective Israel
you have solutions that are try
and really rigorous analysis
no effect cold-blooded
hard-headed the valuations
using good data show
no effect no no effect with depressed
would expect that Murray's law right up with that it
yeah I I'll I thought I was contributing something good
I I
move out to those or broader
picture for a moment we're done with the great society and
the it imposition for its assumptions about how people work
now these kinds of things wanna be overriding themes it seems to me
going back to losing ground is
your conviction that complexity
from the federal level arm almost always backfires
morally wrong up yeah complexity
has a whole bunch a different aspects 01 ass aspect to the complexity is
that teaching kids is actually a pretty
simple thing it becomes rocket science
in today's bureaucracy because to do something
release simple like operationalize the precept children cannot learn in a
chaotic environment therefore
when a child in the classroom is creating a chaotic environment you get
that trial
outta class right I'll
the the complexity the system we have now is first you have
six different school education theories why you should
agree on a child room and even it
the they say well we should get him out then you have 25 pages
regulations about how you get them out of the classroom soap
so part is just this superfly I'll
complexity applying rules
and another aspect services you have to have
rule for everything so that
getting this chaotic child outta class to continue example
you probably I making this up because I don't know for sure
I bet there are a long list of guidelines as to exactly how much
physical contact right you are allowed
classroom and if you violate any of those right got a problem but through
the education bureaucracy which you just talking about
it seems to me that the rules
that they create and the monopoly that the education schools
on the pipeline for teachers is a class examples are publishers
approach which says that this is a reward
for the guild and less about the students right that this is
you know bureaucrat bureaucrats make rules
and more rules they make the better it is for them because they're the ones who
get
decide their work how much of this how do you separate out
the sort very deeply cynical idea that is also have self-dealing
in the system which is some stuff that you talk about him here
and how much was just well-intentioned unintended consequence
I doubt if anybody goes into
the teachers union saying how can I make life better for the teachers fostering
kids right there's always an internal rationalization
for a while you're doing what you're doing but I'm with you sometimes that
the things they end up doing
seem so P leader hurt the kids are with some other work rules and the rest
I ask myself how can the rationalize that to themselves
anymore and here is where I can't get inside the heads
the bureaucracy so what I'm about to say
is not data-driven about their
inner feelings short but what it looks like what it looks like
are people who are making a pretty good salary relative what they could make in
the private sector
they have terrific job security are they are not being charged
on the quality of their performance relative to
creating a clean environment or educate kids are eating their being
grated on the basis how will you operate with the bureaucracy
ICA kinda demoralized
cynical population
people working within the government's who've when they cut and counter people
and the private sector tend to do with bureaucrats done for centuries
I have the power I have the ability to say no
I have the ability to make trouble for you human beings
unfortunately seem to like that
operation they'd like to take advantage in that kinda situation
and that's actually what led me to write the book just
a friend of ours it was but demise by this with the person who essentially
said unless you do what I say
we're gonna put your business on the phone tribulation that seems to be the
way the government
operationally functions as you encounter from day to day
maybe their hearts are in the right place but a sherlock that way
yeah that was its when I was
reading the lawlessness section of the book kept thinking back to
you know edmund burke have in Berks fundamental
the sort of the Rosetta Stone for understanding where
Evan Burke would come down on the issue the day from pitchman
Hastings to the supporting the front
the American Revolution hitting the French Revolution was
the abusive arbitrary power right
arbitrariness which is fundamentally just lawlessness
and one I liked in the book quite a bit it talks about how
at the operational level the way the law works in
with Phil hamburgers written a lot about yeah that administrative law the
bureaucrat the way a beer at Sovereign
is purely arbitrary power right in its its you have
infinite supply regulations you can always find the regulation you want to
empower yourself right it's like Felix the Cat magic back
I am by what everyone in there I
where you're coming from in this is very
I know this is nothing new sensation for you but where you're coming from this is
sort at odds with the zeitgeist right the intellectuals like guys
intellectuals like yes yes yes I don't know not not not the popular it's not
the problem in that one other
most intriguing things I think I've the political moment is that there's
then diagram overlapping the sort of Elizabeth Warren arguments
and the Tea Party argument is much bigger than people realize disagreements
come with the remedies
right but the the complaints were big institutions are
thats that are trained and organized both the Tea Party
lizabeth for right I agree so you know
what let's put it this way what do you think the sort though Elizabeth Warren
explanation and I'll just characterizes miss characterize it as I see fit
that basically to the big banks and you know what you're worried about the
bureaucrats in the lawyers
and the politicians but you've got it all wrong arm
they're the people are trying to help the people are hurting or the 1
percenters
in the billionaires in the wall street the fat cats they're the ones are really
point streak
I just fine that it has
not good truth in that in so far as you have
but I call 'cause capitalism whereby you do have the big banks to the big
corporations in bed with the government
Chur so if you are talking well financial
dodd-frank is the classic example the big banks
like it right and they sent to open yeah and the reason it like that
Jamie diamond assets chase
JP Morgan get are who said
quote the dodd-frank gives
his corporation a bigger boat right to keep out smaller
competitors who can't handle the regulatory apparatus
but that's been true throughout big corporations so
I am willing to you know
carried torches into the and
into the charge on the corporation's charging them with
behaving wrongly
but they're doing it with the help of government
if you then say well how is it that
exxon is using its vast power
to presley when it's not acting cause a plea
I'm kinda hard put to find anything and my general attitude toward
great big corporations is
they seem to be trying very hard to get the
ever more reliable cars ever more powerful computers
no ever better teeth whiteners
it up you name it the private sector still does a really good job
I love assorted catering to the customer
as best they can and spending millions of dollars trying to get it
the evil things they do I love the quote from mom
retire that I use is what I progress worries
said the power than a multiple millionaire
he was a Brit Soraya the power that a multiple multi-millionaire
has over me even if he is not just my neighbor but my employer
is much less than the lowest most insignificant
official state who has it within his power to tell me
where and how I'm a lip and thats
the difference exxon cannot come to my door
and say fill up your tank was super or
you're going to jail right a the government can do that to me
thousand although it can with the help of government corporate rates and
monopoly
right taken it can have its Stooges and the government come to my front door and
say
I guess what the only option you have anymore
it by super the Obamacare model mandate you you must now you super
are you not use ethanol yeah and there's also some things out but but
I have as many complaints
about the way capitalism is practiced as Elizabeth Warren does abused their total
number computers where
and I have the same kinda antipathy
personal this rule dislike love the business executives should behave this
way I think they're betraying
something very important about how the world on work
about what we're talking about here is a perversion
about capitalism should be I think that one of the things that
economist mansur also teaches that when government
has a lot of favors to sell the cats out the bag
and that you will and up with the government has no limits on its power
a government which is as bad as rules would put it suffers from institutional
store roses
which pretty much prevents it from doing anything useful that's not the per
person up government
that is what government does when government has the freedom
to do lots of things right I know that famous line that people always
misinterpret from from Adam Smith
worries as you know you never get to businessmen
people in the same industry talking to each other without try to clued against
the customer which is true it's a recruiter
brothers is the we know from jump into another you can't collude against the
customer
successfully for very long without the government helping you
right arm so
are you are are you optimist or a pessimist long-term
I'm optimistic out of course I'm reminded as we all are often saying in
the long term world that
I have had this thought in my mind
ever since I wrote a book called Iran's the thought that I've had
is two hundred years from now we're probably going to be way
wealthier than we are now if you look at GDP her throughout the West
spin quite consistent so let's say that wealth has gotten much greater
technology we can't even imagine
with the technology will do but just take the degree to which and technology
has empowered is now
and imagine what that's going to be like twenty years from now
am I supposed to believe that under conditions and vast well
love empowerment of individuals over
incredible amounts of information and a bunch of other things
will still say the best form a government is one in which you have
million the bureaucrats and 16 layers of bureaucracy writing
menu rules I just can't believe that yup so spoiler alert for people having read
the book one of the major argument that you have
is the important um civil disobedience
you have a focus on it that
you don't usually associate you know with
civil disobedience in terms of you know
sit-ins and lunch counter and all that kind
I don't know the jewish I people individually go out so we want when you
talk about
civil disobedience was agree with the idea of getting to the optimistic
scenario in the long run
least in your guidance depends on some civil disobedience right
I wanna drag the regulatory state
kicking and screaming to behave like state troopers on highways
right now we as individuals who
ignore regulations are like someone who's going down Interstate thats
deserted
and the speed limit is 65 were gone
seventy to you might get pulled over
if it's a nice ladies because he could have a state trooper who
as a village quota maybe just bored peoples over
but you and I know the flow of traffic on a typical interstate
with speed limit is 65 miles an hour is at least
72 we're all going that fast at that point
the the state troopers say okay will pull you over if you're going way faster
respite or will pull you over if you're driving erratically
otherwise will leave you alone the whole strategy that I have is to have ordinary
citizens
with regard to regulations be put in the position a place for the floor traffic
72 miles an hour
and you're out there breaking the law but they're
hurting anybody and so you get a no harm no foul
enforcement regulations just like they have in professional basketball
where they could call a foul every trip down the court but they don't
unless it affects the play and if we could do that
the regulations and still be in the books
but they would be enforced on the basis
love that anything really get hurt right
and if the answer is No let the american people play
also state troopers actually have to behave
in a very rigorous manner right in particularly in the air
buddy buddy camera right up would you want by cameras on bureaucrats
yeah if we could get body cameras on bureaucrats
first it would expose them saying to citizens
try this and will ruin you right
that would hold sup buddy evers a bureaucrat reveal how they spend their
days
yet we have a bitch which might bring down the state although we've got a lot
up
second-hand porn that I
solitaire on that note I think we've had a fine can I think I i kno
and we thank you very much charles Murray the book is by the people
and will be out I may eleventh May 12 May 12 but you may pre-order now
pre-order now yes in
it