- Hey everyone.
I'm here today with Pat Flynn
- Hey.
- You might have seen him in one of my vlogs before
and you've probably seen him around the internet before
because that's kind of what you're all about.
- I get around on the internet?
- Yeah, yeah.
- Okay, maybe a little bit.
- This is gonna be a video talking about
designers working with clients.
Pat has a business, he hires designers.
- I need designers.
I need designers.
I have a designer on my team but that doesn't mean
I work exclusively with them and so
I'm happy to share what I can to help you as a designer.
- So do you wanna tell people about your business then?
- Sure.
- How design is involved in it.
- So, my website is at SmartPassiveIncome.com
and I have multiple components to what I do.
A podcast, blog, YouTube,
that all obviously has some design and visual elements
but in addition to that,
you know courses, online courses,
books, I mean, everything that I do pretty much has some
sort of design element on top of it.
What I do specifically is I help people
make more money, save more time, and help more people too
through building online business based on their super power.
So all of you have a super power, right,
which is to help somebody with design
in some way, shape, or form, so I'm all about
just whatever I can do to serve you to help
make your business and your life better.
This is why I work here.
So I'm so jazzed about this conversation
and I started in 2008 after getting laid off
from the architecture industry so I actually came from
a little bit of a design background too.
- There we go, I didn't know that.
- So I have some CAD experience and Photoshop experience too
but even though I have that experience,
I still need somebody because I have other things
that I really need to focus on in my business.
Actually, the first three years of my business,
actually four years, I was doing everything myself.
- Oh, wow.
- Even with the podcast artwork and my podcast show notes,
blog posts, images, like e-books and such,
I was designing everything myself, even things like
advertisements and I was designing it all myself.
And then eventually I hit burnout
where I was just like "okay, well, I don't have
more than 24 hours in a day, I need to get my sleep."
I was getting unhealthy.
I need to hand some of this stuff off.
And design eventually became something that,
although I loved it and I didn't want to hand it off,
I knew I had to.
So my first tip would be to just realize
that you are offering a huge service to those who you help
because you're allowing people like myself,
who, potentially even could do design, I mean,
there's obviously people who need it because
they can't do it, but even those who can do it,
like, as the CEO of my company, I need somebody
who can just do it for me, do it well,
and do it in a nice way that it's not gonna stress me out.
- Yeah, exactly.
So how did you go about hiring that first designer
when you decided that you needed someone else
to do this podcast art or, you know, all your design bits?
- Well the first designer that I
really started to work with,
you know, I tried a lot of those other different sites
and I just wasn't really happy with the quality of,
you know, something like a fiver, something like that,
when you're a business owner, you're like
"oh, what's the fastest, cheapest way I could go?"
Those are kind of sites you get recommended.
And then you kind of get what you pay for, right,
on those sites.
- I agree completely.
- I was really looking for somebody with some talent
and I started with my network.
I started asking the people who were on my team,
I had people on my team doing other things
like support and project management, so that's where I went
first because I knew that if I had a good relationship with
them, they might have somebody who is kind of along the same
lines in terms of the vibe and culture that they
can recommend and that's how we found Dusty,
Dustin, who started out and I really loved him as a person
to start off, which was a great plus.
So even before seeing anything that he'd ever designed,
just getting a conversation with him was
really really important because I got to just be like
"I can imagine working with this guy."
Let's first make sure his designs are good
and that he understands like my brand language,
which of course he did and he showed that,
and he showed that through some small projects.
Gosh, I can't remember what it was.
I think it was a book design cover that was
his first project and you know, I have so many more
brand design elements in my business but
for me as a business owner, I want to make sure
that this person can understand my brand language,
and I'm gonna start by working on a small project first.
So if you're ever trying to work with somebody,
even if they already have a design team or person,
you can still kind of infiltrate that and support them
by offering to support them on something that is small.
That can really help them out and be valuable.
- Yeah, 'cause that one little project can turn into
many projects, or in your designers case, a full time job.
- Yeah, absolutely.
I mean this person, Dusty, who started out with the
e-book stuff, he designs now the user interface
on the website.
He also did the user interface for a software that we built,
the Smart Podcast Player.
Now e-book design covers, and it's funny though,
because you might think that well, I only use him
exclusively, and I don't.
Actually, when we were writing my book Will It Fly?,
I was like okay, I need the cover for Will It Fly?
was one of the most stressful things.
And Dusty did a good job of coming up with a few
design concepts, but he was very respectful in that
I wanted to see more from different people
so I can get different styles.
So things like book covers especially is a great opportunity
for you to, even if a person already has a designer,
to offer a different style because there is value there
in seeing outside perspective on something such as that.
So we found three or four designers who put in a bid
for some work and we looked at their portfolios,
I think that's very important to have, an amazing portfolio.
- We talk about that a lot.
- That's so important and that's the tip I give to everybody
who's looking to hire somebody.
Look at the portfolio and you will be able to immediately
tell if that person is along the same lines.
Not that you can do great or not-so-great work,
but it's just does that kind of work match--
- Yeah, with what I need.
- With what I need, exactly.
- So how did you, you said that they submitted some bids
for the project, how did you put that
out there into the world?
Where did those designers find that project?
- It was all through my network.
- There we go.
- So, I mean honestly, the more people you know,
the more opportunities you have.
And so I think it's really important.
If I could back into time, in the DeLorean,
I would tell my younger self meet and talk to
as many people as you can.
Don't ask for anything from everybody or even anybody,
but as long as you know those people,
those are new opportunities that when you need something,
or when that person needs something,
you can be there to offer a service or to help them
or direct them and put them in the right direction.
Gosh, everything happens as a result of the relationships
that you build, it's so crazy how important it is.
- Yeah, that's been huge in my career, too, as a designer.
Like, moving on past the freelance stage
and into my full time job.
- Yeah.
- So how do you work with your designers?
What does the process look like there?
Do you send them a full brief, do you just say
"hey, I need this thing" and they sort of know
you well enough to get on with it?
What does that look like?
- The best designers I've worked with,
and Dusty, on my team, he does a really good job with this,
we have a conversation.
Number one, we have a conversation.
He understands that I have this thing that I need
help with the design,
and after I get over the fact that I'm not gonna do
this myself, I'm still compelled to do things myself,
and I think that just plays along with, like,
especially for people like me that have design experience,
you can still support those people too
and I think the reason why I love going with Dusty
right away is just because I know he understands
the brand language, the style guides.
I know that if I give him something,
he's gonna put it into my brand in a way such that
it's not gonna look weird or be different,
like he knows the language.
So I would say if you're just starting out,
get to know the language of the brand that
you're hoping to serve and your clients work
even before you have a first conversation with them.
- Right.
- Because they're going to be really impressed
in what you say and the why behind the design choices
you make if that aligns with that brand,
well then you're going to be more likely to
A) get that job, and B), you know, provide a great
experience, and C), perhaps get rehired later.
But anyway, I digress.
I talk a lot, I have a lot of coffee.
- It's an important digression.
- This is what happens when you have too much coffee.
So when I work with a designer, the first conversation's
really important and what Dusty always
does is he just asks questions.
Who is this for?
How do you want it to fit into your brand?
How is it gonna be used?
What are some ideas that you might have that you
would want included?
What do you want this not to be?
That's a great question too.
Kind of setting boundaries, right.
So that way he can just already know what I don't
want and not even attempt to do such things.
So after that conversation, typically after,
you know, it depends on the project, sometimes it's
fairly quickly, other times it takes a few weeks,
but then he'll give me a rough sketch or a wire frame.
Often times, it's a wire frame on a Photoshop file
so it does look kind of high quality but it's not
clickable, it's nothing like that.
If it's more of a structure of a software then it's
going to be more wire frame, still designed likely
in Photoshop or InDesign but just the major pieces
and components and then it just starts to get a little
bit more, you know, the resolution starts to come out
over time, you know, we start to get more defined.
I think it's all about making those big decisions first
and then filling out those smaller details.
- So it sounds like you guys have a few different
feedback points along the way.
- Absolutely.
- It's not that he comes to you with this finished product,
it's "here's the wire frames, what do you think about this?"
- Right, exactly.
That way, he doesn't build something out
and then I say "no, I don't like how this is framed here."
That's something that can be addressed way early on
in the process and it's just best to get those big things
up first before you start working on those smaller details.
It's similar to, there's a productivity tip that you
might have heard before that relates to an analogy of,
imagine a bowl or a big cylinder vase
and then you have your tasks represented by rocks.
If you do all the small tasks in your life first,
and you fill in this bowl with sand, right,
really tiny rocks, and then you kind of go with
the medium sized tasks and then your bigger tasks
are like the last thing that you save,
there's not going to be enough room to do all that.
But if you start with the big things first,
you put that on the bottom, and then you put the medium ones
and then you put the sand on top,
the sand can then infiltrate all the way through
and you're gonna actually have more room in your life.
And I think you should take the same approach
with your design projects too.
Let's make the big decisions first before we figure out
the details, it's like building a house, right.
You don't want to figure out, "okay, well what piece of
art am I gonna put over the couch"
before you understand exactly where the wall's gonna be.
Or even the lot that your wall's going to be on
or that your house is on.
So, you know, that's what we do and that's why I love it
because then we don't have to go back.
Because my time is precious
and I value exactly where every minute is spent
and I love tackling things upfront like that first
before making mistakes and having to come back.
- Yeah, that makes total sense.
And is that process one that you both
have built out over time?
As being refinements made to it, perhaps mistakes made
that then had to be corrected and--
- Of course.
Of course.
You know, especially when you're working with somebody
for the first time, you kind of have to get a sense for how
one person works and how another person works.
Whenever there's two people together,
there's gonna be figuring out that needs to be done.
But over time, as long as you're conscious about,
"okay, what worked last time, what didn't work last time,
let's make it better the next time around."
Then it's always going to improve.
It's when you keep doing the same things and you're
hoping for different results that you're
just going to drive yourself insane.
- Yeah, that makes sense.
- It was Einstein or somebody who said that.
- So what's some advice you can give to designers out there
who are perhaps, they're trying to get some clients on board
who have amazing businesses like yours?
First of all, what can they do to attract the attention
of someone like you, someone who has the business that
is gonna be great to work with?
- Well, number one, if you know a friend of mine,
and you've done great work for them,
then if my friend tells me "I have this amazing designer
who can help you with this", that I'm gonna listen to that
more than anything because I have,
again, that relationship there.
So you could strategize, okay, who does that person know
who I might already have a connection with,
maybe I can do some great work for them first
or maybe I already did some great work for them.
I can ask them "hey, can you do a little introduction
to Charli because I love her work, I want to support her,
and I know you know her so maybe you can put in a good word"
You can ask that.
Especially if you've served somebody else.
- Yeah, and I think I love that advice because
it just goes to show that every single project
that you work on is important.
And, you know, every opportunity you have to work
with someone can lead to something else.
So it's always worth putting the effort
in being professional.
- Every project you work on gives you access to an entirely
new network of people if you serve that person well.
I love that, that's great.
Secondly, okay, if you maybe don't know anybody
in my network or just can't infiltrate in that way,
what I would recommend is looking at my website or brand
or my business and finding a place where maybe
things aren't being designed in the best way possible.
And then you can come in and say, for example,
"hey Pat, I'm just gonna share this with you.
I love your stuff, I've been looking around, I'm a designer,
by the way, and I feel like you could use
a little bit of improvement here."
And saying that in a way that doesn't make it look like
you're coming from a higher ground and like shaming me
but kind of from a place of serving.
Without even really asking for anything in return,
I think you can do that in a very smart way
where it would get me interested and
"wow, I didn't even know that my e-book covers,
I didn't even know that the artwork on my leap pages
were kind of potentially stunting my email growth."
I didn't know if you designed it this way,
it would actually increase my subscripership.
And then you could potentially say
"You know, I would be down to, I'll design this one
for you for free and I'll show you.
It'll increase your email opt-ins."
And if you do that and it increases my email opt-ins,
I mean, you're hired.
I'm gonna, okay, can you do all of them now
because that worked and thank you and oh, by the way,
can I share you with my friends who also
need help with this, too?
So if you serve me and you help me and perhaps
you might need to do that and just a small
but quick win way, then you're in.
Then I know you, then even if I can't hire you,
oh, but you know, I already have a designer but
my friend Bobby, he would just love what you do,
can I make a connection?
- Yeah, I like that, as opposed to the cold email approach
where it's like "hey, I'm a designer, if you ever
need anything, I'm here."
Because then it's on you to think of a project for them.
- I literally get like ten of those a week.
- Exactly.
I get them and I am a designer.
(both laughing)
What can the designer do to make the process better
with working for you then?
What's something that you really like?
You mentioned a few things before with
your process with Dusty makes it smoother.
What's some advice for a designer that's working with
clients to put them ease, make them have confidence
in the designer?
- Number one is communication,
and making sure that person like myself knows that
there's always gonna be check points to make sure that
things are progressing along the way.
- So you're not having to be like "hey, where is this?"
You know when to expect it.
- But I also don't want an update for every single click
that you make for every design that you make too.
- I moved this pixel.
- Right, so it's gonna take some just understanding of
what that person's expectations are.
And I'm different than other business owners too,
so it's that initial conversation you have
where you kind of get a sense for how each other works
is going to be really important
and although something might not be said specifically
to you about how to work with that person,
I think just having a little chat with them at first
is gonna give you some idea of how they,
this is how this person might best respond to the
work that we do and I think just always say
"you know, if there are any problems,
or you want me to do and communicate with you in
anything different, you let me know."
And I think just opening up that "hey, if things aren't
going well, please let's be honest",
I think that's really important in business in general
just to always have that open form of communication
and authenticity along the way.
Just everybody's happier in that case, on both sides.
And I would expect that you as a great designer
would love when a person goes "you know, I would prefer
if you did it this way instead, it would just make
my life easier", of course you would want that feedback.
- Of course.
- So welcoming that from the person you're working with
is gonna make that person feel a lot more comfortable
just right up front.
Which just sets the tone for the entire project.
I like when suggestions are made, too.
Because I don't know everything and I think most,
at least great business owners aren't so full of themselves
that they just aren't open for, you know, potentially
other suggestions, you could get a sense for a person
if you were to offer like "hey, by the way, I have done
work like this before with others.
We can do it this way if you want, however,
a couple others that I worked with actually preferred
this way because of A, B, and C.
We'll continue to do it your way if you want,
but I'm just offering this to you because
I wanna help you out."
Like, wow.
Like, you went above and beyond to serve me in a way
that was totally unexpected.
I like that.
Others maybe not so much, but maybe that's again
something that you can set as an expectation
in that first initial call.
- I always feel like it's the designers job to
like, be in charge of the design and to show the client
what the best solution is, right?
- Yes.
- I don't think that as a designer you are doing
the client any favors if you just create exactly
what they have liked detailed in a sketch
or something like that.
If you don't believe that's the designer,
then it answers the problem.
So it's great to hear that you're like open to this.
- Yeah, I'm open to it because, I mean,
Dusty will do some things in my software design
that I'm like "well I didn't think of that.
But that's great, awesome, thank you."
And to know that they even did a little research
before kind of doing it that way.
As long as there's a reason for the design,
I think that's the other thing on the three or whatever
point we're on.
When I'm presented a design, whether it's a wire frame
or a more high-res version of something,
I don't wanna just see it and just be like "yes or no?
Does this work?"
I love being presented the reasons why
things are the way they are because I'm also learning, too,
at the same time so.
"Here's why we did it this way, I think,
we're doing it this way because generally the trend is
if you wanna have people on your website longer,
this is how you structure it so we designed it that way
for you to make sure people--"
Again, you're always bringing it back to me.
Like why and how does this help.
If you just say that you know,
"I come from a more minimalist background
and I just think that's where things should go
in general in the industry so I'm just gonna start
with your website as the black canvas for my bigger goals."
You know what I mean?
- Sounds like pretentious designer alert.
- Yeah, I'm sorry if I sterotyped anybody.
- I think that's great advice.
Thank you, Pat, for sharing that.
I'm sure this has been super useful for anyone watching
who's looking to get into more work in design.
- Awesome.
I'm probably gonna get like a load of emails.
"Hey, you know your YouTube channel artwork's not good.
Here's my design that I think you should do."
- You have just opened yourself up to that.
- I did, right?
- Well, at the moment, Pat's doing a sitehouse a week
over on his YouTube channel, right?
Should you tell people a little bit more about that?
- Yeah, so, you know Charli is an amazing person
who has a lot of expertise in freelance and sitehouse work
and so that's not, you know, I typically teach,
you know, starting a side business that can then turn into
a full time business, but freelancing is something
that we haven't really covered much on Smart Passive Income
and on my YouTube channel so we invited Charli
over to come and actually do a three video series
with her so come and check that out.
And it's a lot of fun.
We talk a lot about how to get started as a freelancer,
getting your first clients, some tips that you can do
to make your life as a freelancer a little bit more
enjoyable, and then also, okay what are some next steps
after freelancing that you can do to just increase
your career and make more money and be happier.
So come over to the YouTube channel
and you'll see Charli there.
- Yeah, I think it'll be a great thing for you to go
hit over and watch after this one.
It's gonna tie in really nicely.
So, go do that, give this video a thumbs up if you
enjoyed it, and thanks for watching.
- Thank you.
- Thanks for being here, Pat.
- Yeah, absolutely.
- See ya.
- We crushed that.
That was awesome.
- Yeah, that was great.