WE WILL HAVE MORE IN THE CORONAVIRUS LATER IN THE
PROGRAM, BUT FIRST, BACK TO
POLITICS.
POLITICS. JOINING US FROM THE CAMPAIGN
TRAIL IN MICHIGAN, DEMOCRATIC
PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE AND
SENATOR, BERNIE SANDERS,
SENATOR, SINCE SUPER TUESDAY,
YOU’VE BEEN GOING AFTER
JOE BIDEN PRETTY HARD ON A
NUMBER OF ISSUES.
TAKE A LOOK.
>> Bernie: OF ONE OF US IN
THIS RACE LED THE OPPOSITION TO
THE WAR IN IRAQ, ONE OF US LED
THE OPPOSITION TO DISASTROUS
TRADE AGREEMENTS, ONE OF US HAS
SPENT HIS ENTIRE LIFE FIGHTING
AGAINST CUTS IN SOCIAL SECURITY.
>> Chris: SENATOR, NOW THAT
THIS IS A TWO MAN RACE, AND
YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE A TWO-MAN
DEBATE SUNDAY, HOW HARD DO YOU
GO AFTER JOE BIDEN WITHOUT
CARVING EACH OTHER UP AND
HELPING DONALD TRUMP WIN
REELECTION?
REELECTION? >> Bernie: WELL, CHRIS, THAT’S
THE RIGHT QUESTION.
BIDEN IS A FRIEND OF MINE,
JOE BIDEN IS A DECENT GUY, WHAT
JOE HAS SAID IS THAT IF I WIN
THE NOMINATION HE WILL BE THERE
FOR ME, I HAVE SAID IF HE WON
THE NOMINATION, I WILL BE THERE
FOR HIM.
FOR HIM. BECAUSE WE BOTH RECOGNIZE THAT
WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO IS A
PATHOLOGICAL LIAR, AND I SAY
THAT WITHOUT ANY JOY IN MY HEART
HEART.
HEART. SOMEBODY WHO IS RUNNING A
CORRUPT ADMINISTRATION, AND IT
SOMEBODY WHO IS APPARENTLY NEVER
READ THE CONSTITUTION OF THE
UNITED STATES AND THINK THESE
ABOVE THE LAW.
BIDEN AND I, NO MATTER WHO WINS
THIS THING WILL BE COMPETING,
BUT NOW THAT IT IS A TWO-WAY
RACE, IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE
VOTERS OF THIS COUNTRY TO ASK
THEMSELVES TWO QUESTIONS.
NUMBER ONE, WHICH CANDIDATE IS
STRONGER IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE
TO DEFEAT TRUMP.
AND NUMBER TWO, WHAT ARE THE
DIFFERENCES IN OUR RECORD.
JOE HAS BEEN IN WASHINGTON FOR A
LONG TIME AS HAVE I.
MY POINT IS, WHEN PEOPLE SEE THE
RECORDS, JOE VOTED FOR THE WAR
IN IRAQ, I OPPOSE THE WAR IN
IRAQ.
IRAQ. JOE VOTED FOR THE WALL STREET
BAILOUT, I VIGOROUSLY OPPOSE THE
WALL STREET BAILOUT.
WHEN YOU GO TO THE MIDWEST, WE
ARE IN MICHIGAN RIGHT NOW, YOU
GO TO WISCONSIN, PENNSYLVANIA,
PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR
VIEWS ON TRADE, BECAUSE
DISASTROUS TRADE AGREEMENTS LIKE
NAFTA AND PMP ARE WITH CHINA
COST THIS COUNTRY OVER 4 MILLION
GOOD PAYING JOBS, DECIMATED
COMMUNITIES HERE IN MICHIGAN.
I HOPE TO LEAVE THE OPPOSITION
TO THOSE TRADE AGREEMENTS, JOE
VOTED FOR THEM.
>> Chris: SENATOR, JOE BIDEN
IS ALSO GOING AFTER YOU, HERE HE
IS ON WHO IS BETTER ABLE TO HELP
WORKING AMERICANS.
WORKING AMERICANS. TAKE A LOOK.
>> NOW, LET’S GO TO MICHIGAN,
BERNIE, AND SEE IF THAT’S TRUE.
I’M THE GUY THAT HELPED BAILOUT
THE OUTER MOBILE INDUSTRY, WHAT
DID YOU DO, OLD BUDDY?
COME ON.
COME ON. >> Chris: HE SAYS YOU’VE GOT
BIG PLANS, HE GETS RESULTS.
>> Bernie: WELL, I THINK IN
TERMS OF RESULTS, WHEN YOU
SUPPORT THE DISASTROUS WAR IN
IRAQ, WHEN YOU SUPPORT THE
WALL STREET BAILOUT, WHEN YOU
SUPPORT TERRIBLE TRADE
AGREEMENTS --
AGREEMENTS -- >> Chris: HOW ABOUT THE AUTO
BAILOUT, SIR?
BAILOUT, SIR? >> Bernie: MALL, THE AUTO
BAILOUT WAS DONE BY THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION, AND IT WAS A
STEP FORWARD, BUT I THINK,
SOMETIMES JOE WAS TAKING A
LITTLE BIT OF CREDIT, AS
VICE PRESIDENT, FOR INITIATIVES
THAT WERE LED BY
PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND BY MANY
MEMBERS OF THE CONGRESS.
>> Chris: LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT
THE PRACTICAL POLITICS, HERE,
THE BIG PRIZE ON TUESDAY, OR THE
BIGGEST PRIZES MICHIGAN WITH 125
DELEGATES, YOU SCORED A MAJOR
UPSET WHEN THEY ARE IN 2016
AGAINST HILLARY CLINTON, BUT ON
SUPER TUESDAY, YOU LOST TO
BIDEN, AMONG WHAT MANY PEOPLE
WOULD THINK WOULD BE HER BASE,
WHITE WORKING-CLASS VOTERS, IN A
NUMBER OF STATES, AND BIDEN
TAUNTED YOU ON YOUR LACK OF
SUPPORT AMONG SOME OTHER GROUPS,
HERE HE IS.
>> IT’S RIDICULOUS, BERNIE, YOU
GOT BEATEN BY OVERWHELMING
SUPPORT, AFRICAN-AMERICANS,
SUPPORT, AFRICAN-AMERICANS, BERNIE, YOU HAD BEATEN BECAUSE
OF SUBURBAN WOMEN, BERNIE.
>> Chris: IF YOU WERE TO LOSE
IN THE FIRST INDUSTRIAL MIDWEST
ESTATE TO VOTE, MICHIGAN, ON
TUESDAY, HOW SERIOUS IS THAT,
HOW DAMAGING, WOULD YOU CONSIDER
DROPPING OUT?
DROPPING OUT? >> Bernie: WELL, NO, I
CERTAINLY WOULD NOT CONSIDER
DROPPING OUT.
DROPPING OUT. YOU KNOW, CHRIS, MEDIA ASKS YOU,
IS THIS STATE OR THAT STATE LIFE
OR DEATH.
OR DEATH. I WAS ASKED THAT IN IOWA,
NEW HAMPSHIRE, WE WON
CALIFORNIA.
CALIFORNIA. AT THE LARGE ESTATE IN THIS
COUNTRY, WE ARE WINNING AMONG
LATINO VOTERS BIG TIME.
WE ARE WINNING AMONG YOUNG
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT
THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY OR
THE FUTURE OF THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY, WE MIGHT WANT TO LOOK
WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE AT, AND
WHAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SAYING IS
THAT WE HAVE GOT TO MOVE
AGGRESSIVELY TO MAKE SURE THAT
HEALTH CARE IS A RIGHT FOR ALL,
YOUNG PEOPLE WANT TO RAGE
MINIMUM-WAGE TO AT LEAST $15 AN
HOUR, YOUNG PEOPLE WANT US
REBUILD OUR CRUMBLING INTO
INFRASTRUCTURE AND BUILD
AFFORDABLE HOUSING THAT WE NEED.
YOUNG PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WE HAVE
MASSIVE LEVELS OF WEALTH AND
INCOME INEQUALITY WERE THREE
PEOPLE HAVE MORE WEALTH ON THE
BOTTOM HALF OF AMERICA.
THEY WANT CHANGES.
THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CLIMATE
CHANGE, THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT
RACISM AND SEXISM.
I THINK, IF YOU LOOK AT THE
GENERAL ELECTORATE, YOU LOOK AT
THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY, I
THINK YOU’VE GOT A LOT OF ENERGY
BEHIND US.
BEHIND US. JUST YESTERDAY, CHRIS, JUST
YESTERDAY, DIDN’T GET A LOT OF
MEDIA ATTENTION FOR WHATEVER
REASON, WE HELD A RALLY IN GRAND
PARK IN CHICAGO, WE HAD 15,000
PEOPLE OUT.
PEOPLE OUT. SO I AM FEELING GOOD ABOUT THE
MOMENTUM THAT WE HAVE, I THINK
WE ARE GOING TO DO WELL ON
TUESDAY, AND I THINK WE’RE GOING
TO BEAT BIDEN.
>> Chris: BEAT BIDEN IN
MICHIGAN?
MICHIGAN? >> Bernie: YES, I DO, YES.
LAST TIME AROUND, AS YOU
INDICATED, IT WAS SEEN AS A BIG
UPSET, BECAUSE POLLING HAD US
DOWN, LITERALLY BY 20 POINTS ONE
DAY BEFORE THE ELECTION.
>> Chris: OKAY, YOU TALK TO
YOUR LAST ANSWER ABOUT INCOME
INEQUALITY, AND I WANT TO PRESS
DOWN ON THAT WITH YOU.
HERE IS SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID
LAST FALL, "I DON’T THINK
BILLIONAIRES SHOULD EXIST."
FIRST OF ALL, A FEW
BILLIONAIRES, LET’S TALK ABOUT,
BILL GATES, STEVE JOBS,
JEFF BEZOS HAVE CREATED MORE
THAN 1 MILLION JOBS, PROBABLY
MORE THAN 1 MILLION EXTRA IN
TERMS OF FALLOUT AS IT COMES
FROM THEIR COMPANIES, AND
CREATED TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF
WEALTH, WHY SHOULDN’T THEY SHARE
IN THE WEALTH THAT THEY CREATE
WHICH IS HELPING NOT JUST THEM,
BUT HAS HELPED A LOT OF
AMERICANS?
AMERICANS? >> Bernie: CHRIS, I HAVE
NOTHING PERSONAL AGAINST ANY
BILLIONAIRE.
BILLIONAIRE. BUT WHEN YOU ARE YOU LOOKING AT
AN ECONOMY AND IN ECONOMY TODAY
WHERE THE TOP 1% OWNS MORE
WEALTH THAN THE BOTTOM 92%,
WHERE OVER THE LAST 30 YEARS,
THE TOP 1% HAS SEEN A
$21 TRILLION INCREASE IN THEIR
WEALTH LEVEL, BOTTOM HALF OF
AMERICA HAS ACTUALLY SEEN A
DECLINE, WHERE REAL WAGES HAVE
ESSENTIALLY BEEN STAGNANT FOR
THE LAST 45 YEARS, WORKERS OF
AMERICA NOT MAKING A NICKEL MORE
IN REAL DOLLARS THAN THEY DID 45
YEARS AGO, WHEN YOU’VE GOT HALF
A MILLION PEOPLE SLEEPING OUT ON
THE STREETS OF AMERICA TONIGHT,
HOMELESS, WHEN THE VERY, VERY
RICH ARE GETTING RICHER, WHEN
YOU’VE GOT HALF OF OUR PEOPLE
LIVING PAYCHECK TO PAYCHECK,
87 MILLION PEOPLE UNINSURED OR
UNDERINSURED, 45 MILLION PEOPLE
DEALING WITH STUDENT DEBT, YOUNG
PEOPLE CAN AFFORD TO GO TO
COLLEGE, I’M IN MICHIGAN NOW, GO
TO DETROIT, YOU’VE GOT A SEWER
DISTRICT WHICH IS INADEQUATELY
FUNDED.
FUNDED. WE’VE GOT TO GET OUR PRIORITIES
RIGHT, THAT’S WHAT WE HAVE TO
DO.
DO. >> Chris: TWO QUESTIONS, FIRST
OF ALL, LET’S JUST TAKE THE CASE
OF BILL GATES.
HE CREATED A WHOLE NEW WAY FOR
PEOPLE TO GET INFORMATION, TO
DISCUSS, TO COMMUNICATE WITH
EACH OTHER, HUGE INCREASE IN THE
WAY WE LIVE NOW.
IT’S UNIMAGINABLE NOT TO HAVE
MICROSOFT AND AT THE VARIOUS
THINGS THAT ARE CREATED.
>> Bernie: HE DESERVES GREAT
CREDIT FOR THAT, CHRIS, I
APPLAUD HIM.
APPLAUD HIM. >> Chris: LET ME JUST SAY,
HE’S CREATED A GREAT ECONOMY,
HE’S GIVING AWAY BILLIONS OF
DOLLARS, SOME COULD ARGUE HE’S
DONE A LOT MORE WITH HIS WEALTH
THAN ANY POLITICIAN WOULD, WHICH
IS ONE QUESTION, THE OTHER IS,
HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO AS A
DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST IN TERMS OF
WORKER CONTROL OF BUSINESSES?
>> Bernie: GOOD, WELL TO
QUESTIONS, NO ONE IS DENIGRATING
THE ACHIEVEMENTS OF BILL GATES
OR ANYBODY ELSE.
BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT,
CULTURALLY, WHAT’S GOING ON.
IT DO PEOPLE LIKE THE WALDEN
FAMILY, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT OWN
WALMART, THEY ARE WORTH WELL
OVER $100 BILLION.
WHEN THEIR WORKERS ARE MAKING
$11 OR $12 AN HOUR.
NO ONE IS DENIGRATING PEOPLE WHO
HAVE MADE SIGNIFICANT
ACHIEVEMENTS, BUT ENOUGH REALLY
IS ENOUGH.
IS ENOUGH. DOES MIKE BLOOMBERG REALLY NEED
$65 BILLION TO SEE HIS WEALTH
INCREASED BY 15 BILLION IN THE
LAST THREE YEARS?
IN TERMS OF WORKER CONTROL, I
BELIEVE IT IS IMPORTANT TO PUT
WORKERS ON THE BOARDS OF
DIRECTORS OF MAJOR CORPORATIONS,
AND I WILL TELL YOU WHY, WHEN
YOU DO THAT, CORPORATIONS ARE
NOT GOING TO BE SO QUICK TO SHUT
DOWN AND AMERICA, AND MOVED TO
CHINA, MOVED TO MEXICO, AND MOVE
TO OTHER LOW-WAGE COUNTRIES.
I WANT WORKING PEOPLE TO SAY YOU
KNOW WHAT, I’M IN A JOB, MY
IDEAS MATTER, I’M JUST NOT A COG
IN A MACHINE, AND IN VERMONT, BY
THE WAY, AND IN STATES ALL OVER
THIS COUNTRY, WHERE YOU HAVE
ENTERPRISES WHERE WORKERS DO
HAVE SIGNIFICANT INPUT INTO WHAT
GOES ON, ABSENTEEISM GOES DOWN,
PRODUCTIVITY GOES UP.
DEMOCRACY, TO ME, MEANS NOT JUST
VOTING EVERY FOUR YEARS, HAVING
A BIT OF A SAY IN THE JOB THAT
YOU WORK AT.
I LIKE THAT ARGUMENT.
>> Chris: I HAVE TWO MORE
QUESTIONS I WANT TO TRY TO
SQUEEZE IN HERE, SIR.
THERE’S BEEN A LOT OF TALK
RECENTLY FOR YOUR SUPPORT FOR
CERTAIN ASPECTS.
CERTAIN ASPECTS. I EMPHASIZE THAT, ASPECTS, OF
CASTRO’S CUBA.
CASTRO’S CUBA. THERE’S A STORY THAT CAME OUT
THIS WEEK, BACK IN 2014 YOU ARE
PART OF A CONGRESSIONAL
DELEGATION THAT WENT TO CUBA AND
YOU MET WITH AN AMERICAN
POLITICAL PRISONER THERE NAMED
ALAN GROSS AND HE SAYS THIS IS
THE CONVERSATION THE TWO OF YOU
HAD.
HAD. GO HE SAID, "I DON’T KNOW IT SO
WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY, HOW
COULD IT BE SO INSENSITIVE TO
MAKE THAT REMARK TO A POLITICAL
HOSTAGE, ME.
HOSTAGE, ME. >> Chris: SENATOR, DID YOU SAY
THAT TO AN AMERICAN POLITICAL
PRISONER IN CUBA?
>> Bernie: I REMEMBER THAT
TRIP VERY WELL, AND I REMEMBER
THE TERRIBLE CONDITIONS THAT
MR. GROSS LIVED IN, HIS TEETH
ARE ROTTING, I DID NOT MAKE THAT
STATEMENT, WHY MR. GROSS IS
SAYING THAT, I HAVE NO IDEA, BUT
I DID NOT MAKE THAT STATEMENT.
IT LOOKED, CUBA IS AN
AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY,
AUTHORITARIAN COUNTRY, SAUDI ARABIA IS AN AUTHORITARIAN
COUNTRY, CHRIS, IF YOU CHECK MY
RECORD, I HAPPEN TO BE, MAY BE
OLD-FASHIONED, NOT LIKE
DONALD TRUMP.
DONALD TRUMP. I DON’T THINK PUTIN IS A NICE
GUY, I DON’T THINK KIM JONG UN
OF NORTH KOREA IS A NICE GUY, I
SPEAK UP FOR DEMOCRACY ALL OVER
THE WORLD, WHETHER IT IS IN
CUBA, WHETHER IT IS IN
SAUDI ARABIA, WHETHER IT IS IN
RUSSIA, WHEREVER IT IS.
>> Chris: FINALLY, THERE WAS A
FASCINATING PROFILE OF YOU IN
"THE NEW YORK TIMES," I DON’T
KNOW IF HE HAD A CHANCE TO READ
IT YESTERDAY, IT SAID THAT WHEN
YOU ARE IN HOTELS, YOU WANT A
ROOM WHICH IS FAR AWAY FROM THE
ICE MACHINES IN THE ELEVATORS,
WHICH I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I
THINK IT’S PERFECTLY SENSIBLE.
IT ALSO SAID THAT YOU WANT YOUR
ROOM TO BE AT 60 DEGREES, AND
THE QUESTION I HAVE, SIR, IS
WHEN YOU ARE ON THE ROAD, DO YOU
HANG MEAT IN YOUR ROOM?
>> Bernie: [LAUGHS]
I’LL TELL YOU, MAYBE IT’S HAVING
LIVED IN VERMONT FOR THE LAST 50
YEARS, I JUST DON’T SLEEP WELL
WHEN THE ROOM GETS VERY, VERY
WARM.
WARM. MY POOR WIFE HAS BEEN HAVING TO
DEAL WITH THAT FOR DECADES NOW,
SOMETIMES, IN HOTELS, IN THE
NIGHT THEY TURN OFF THE AIR
CONDITIONING A GETS PRETTY HOT
AND I DON’T SLEEP, AND WE ARE ON
THE ROAD A WHOLE LOT.
BUT I DO LIKE, HAVE TO CONTEST,
I DO LIKE COLD ROOMS.
>> Chris: IN 15 SECONDS, IT
ALSO SAID THAT YOU LIKE TO WATCH
OLD BOXING MATCHES ON TV, WHO IS
YOUR FAVORITE FIGHTER, SIR?
>> Bernie: I WOULD GO WITH
MUHAMMAD ALI WHO IS NOT ONLY A
GREAT FIGHTER, ONE OF THE GREAT
HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP’S OF TIME, BUT
THE NEXT ORDINARY HUMAN BEING
AND PROBABLY THE MOST LOVED
ATHLETE OF HIS TIME.
>> Chris: YOU THINK YOU COULD
HAVE BEATEN JOE LEWIS?
>> Bernie: YES, I DO.
>> Chris: SENATOR SANDERS,
THANK YOU, INCIDENTALLY, JOE
LEWIS WAS FROM MICHIGAN, YOU’RE
GOING TO BE IN TROUBLE ON THAT
ONE.
ONE. >> Bernie: BY THE WAY, I KNOW,
I JUST MET, AND TERMS OUT THAT
CHUCK WEI LUMUMBA WHO WAS THE
MAYOR OF JACKSON, MISSISSIPPI,
IS CAMPAIGNING FOR MAN MICHIGAN
FAMILY IS RELATED DIRECTLY TO
JOE LEWIS WHOSE REAL NAME IS JOE
BARROWS, THE BARRELS FAMILY OF
MICHIGAN.
MICHIGAN. >> Chris: YOU’VE GOT SOME
POLITICAL REPAIR WORK TO DO THIS
AFTERNOON, SENATOR, THANK YOU,
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME ON THIS