LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MY FIRST GUEST IS A DIPLOMAT AND
AUTHOR WHO BECAME THE FIRST WOMAN TO SERVE AS NATIONAL
SECURITY ADVISOR AND THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN TO SERVE
AS SECRETARY OF STATE.
PLEASE WELCOME, SECRETARY CONDOLEEZZA RICE!
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) ( BAND PLAYING )
>> Stephen: THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> A PLEASURE.
I HAVE TO SAY SOMETHING FROM THE START.
THAT WAS GREAT WALKUP MUSIC.
THANK YOU TO THE BAND.
THEY ARE FANTASTIC.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) >> Stephen: AS I WAS SAYING
BACKSTAGE, I CAN'T BELIEVE I NEVER INTERVIEWED YOU BEFORE.
I THOUGHT I HAD BUT WAS ASSURED BY MY STAFF THAT I HAVEN'T.
I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS TO ASK YOU FROM THE LAST 18 YEARS BUT
I'LL BOIL IT DOWN TO THE LAST THREE DAYS.
>> ALL RIGHT.
>> Stephen: TRUMP INVITED THE TALIBAN TO CAMP DAVID THREE DAYS
BEFORE 9/11.
>> RIGHT.
>> Stephen: WHERE DID YOU FIND YOUR JAW ONCE YOU REALIZED IT
HAD DROPPED?
( LAUGHTER ) >> LET ME MAKE A POINT FIRST
ABOUT THE DECISION TO CANCEL THE MEETING, THAT WAS A GOOD
DECISION.
>> Stephen: SURE.
OFTEN HIS BEST DECISIONS ARE NOT TO DO THE THINGS HE DECIDED TO
DO.
( LAUGHTER ) >> WELL, WHATEVER THE REASON, IT
WAS A GOOD DECISION BECAUSE I THINK THE TALIBAN HAS BECOME
CONVINCED THAT WE WANT TO DEAL FAR MORE THAN THEY DO.
YOU KNOW, THE LAST YEARS, NOT JUST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION,
BUT THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, WE TALKED ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF
LEAVING, BRING THE TROOPS HOME, WE ALL WANT THE WAR TO END, BUT
I THINK THE TALIBAN BECAME CONVINCED THEY COULD GET JUST
ABOUT ANY DEAL SO IT WAS GOOD THE MEETING CANCELED.
YES, I PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN TO DO THE MEETING AT CAMP
DAVID THREE DAYS BEFORE 9/11.
>> Stephen: OKAY.
LET'S SAY I MIGHT HAVE FOUND ANOTHER VENUE.
>> Stephen: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE IDEA OF BEING IN THESE
PEACE NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE TALIBAN?
ARE THEY PARTNERS YOU CAN NEGOTIATE WITH?
I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY, THEY ARE THE BAD GUY HERE.
>> THEY ARE.
>> Stephen: IN PEACE NEGOTIATIONS, YOU'RE DEALING
WITH AN ENEMY.
CAN YOU SAY TALIBAN IS NOT INTERESTED IN A STABLE
AFGHANISTAN?
>> I THINK THAT'S TRUE.
BUT THE FACT IS YOU'RE RARELY NEGOTIATING WITH YOUR FRIENDS,
YOU'RE USUALLY NEGOTIATING WITH YOUR ADVERSARIES.
I WORKED WITH THE NEGOTIATOR SEVERAL TIMES.
HE'S A VERY SOUND AND COMPETENT PERSON AND IF HE GETS THE BACK
TOGETHER NOT TAKE A BAD DEAL, THIS NEGOTIATION IS THE RIGHT
THING TO DO.
>> Stephen: IF HE GETS THE BACK TOGETHER NOT DO A BAD DEAL.
WHAT'S THAT MEAN IS THIS.
>> IF HE GETS THE BACKING FROM THE PRESIDENT AND THE WHITE
HOUSE.
SECRETARY POMPEY O SECRETARY OF STATE, HAS SAID WE HAVE TO GO
BACK TO PRINCIPLE FIRST.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE AN END TO THE AFGHAN WAR THAT IS
GOING TO LEAVE THE TALIBAN WITH THE ABILITY TO JUST BRING
TERRORISTS BACK IN IN THE WAY THAT THEY DID BEFORE 9/11.
WE'RE NOT GOING TO ABANDON THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT, WHICH, OVER
18 YEARS, HAS BUILT INTO SOMETHING OF A DEMOCRATIC
GOVERNMENT, EVEN THOUGH WEAK.
AND I HOPE WE'RE NOT GOING TO ABANDON THE WOMEN OF
AFGHANISTAN.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ) I'M GOING TO TELL YOU SOMETHING.
I VISITED AFGHANISTAN, I THINK, EIGHT OR NINE TIMES AS SECRETARY
OF STATE, AND THE MOST REMARKABLE THING WAS TO SEE
WOMEN IN THE POLICE FORCE, WOMEN IN THE ARMED FORCES, GIRLS GOING
TO SCHOOL.
DO YOU REALIZE THAT, WHEN THE TALIBAN WAS IN CONTROL, GIRLS
COULDN'T GO TO SCHOOL?
SO WE CANNOT ABANDON THESE -- >> Stephen: HOW DO YOU TRUST
THESE PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY COME TO THE BARGAINING TABLE?
>> I WOULDN'T TRUST THEM.
RONALD REAGAN HAD A PHRASE TRUST BUT VERIFY.
>> Stephen: SURE.
YOU CAN NEGOTIATE AN AGREEMENT BUT WE NEED TO LEAVE
FORCES THERE LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE SURE HAT THE AFGHAN ARMY IS ABLE
TO DEFEND ITSELF.
WE HAVE BEEN KEEPING THE PEACE IN KOREA FOR NOW 50-PLUS YEARS,
60 YEARS, AND IT'S WORTH WELL TO KEEP THE PEACE, AND, SO, I
UNDERSTAND -- I UNDERSTAND THE AMERICAN PEOPLES, THAT WE'RE
TIRED OF KEEPING THE PEACE IN VARIOUS PLACES.
I UNDERSTAND THESE WARS HAVE GONE ON A VERY LONG TIME, BUT
WE'RE JUST ABOUT TO HAVE THE 18th ANNIVERSARY OF SEPTEM
SEPTEMBER 11th, LET'S NOT FORGET WHAT HAPPENED IN
AFGHANISTAN AT THE TIME, THE FIFTH POOREST COUNTRY IN THE
WORLD, LET'S NOT FORGET THAT THAT'S WHERE AL QUAIDA PLOTTED
AND PLANNED TO TAKE DOWN THE TWIN TOWERS, TO BLOW A HOLE IN
THE PENTAGON, TO CAUSE THE DEATHS OF THOSE PEOPLE ON FLIGHT
93, LET'S NOT FORGET THAT AND GET TOO ANXIOUS ABOUT GETTING
THIS WAR SETTLED.
WE WILL GET IT SETTLED.
WE CAN MAKE A DEAL, BUT LET'S MAKE A GOOD DEAL, NOT A BAD ONE.
>> Stephen: THAT'S A PERFECTLY REASONABLE POSITION TO MAKE.
( APPLAUSE ) HOW DID YOU IMAGINE AT THE TIME?
WAS THERE SOME DISCUSSION AMONG THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION TEAM IN
2001 AND 2002 DURING THE INITIAL INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN, HOW DID
YOU IMAGINE IT WAS GOING TO END?
EIGHTEEN YEARS LATER IT STILL LOOKS LIKE NOT ENTIRELY SURE
WHAT THE WITHDRAWAL LOOKS LIKE?
>> WE KNEW IT WOULD BE HARD.
THIS IS THE FIFTH POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.
I REMEMBER GOING TO CAMP DAVID AFTER 9/11.
THAT SATURDAY MORNING, WE WERE PLANNING THE INVASION OF
AFGHANISTAN BECAUSE WE KNEW WE WERE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THAT.
>> Stephen: DID ANYONE AT THAT POINT SAY WE SHOULD HAVE THE
TALIBAN OVER HERE SOME DAY?
( LAUGHTER ) >> NO, BUT WE ROLLED OUT THE
MAP.
I'M AN OLD SOVIET SPECIALIST.
AFGHANISTAN, I SAID ISN'T THAT WHERE THE GREAT POWERS GO TO
DIE, THE BRITISH, THE SOVIETS?
WE WERE WORRIED ABOUT HOW LONG IT WOULD TAKE.
BUT WE HAD TO DO THREE THINGS.
WE HAD TO DEFEAT AL QUAIDA.
WE'VE GONE A WAY TO IF NOT DEFEATING, DISABLING AL QUAIDA
TO DO THE KIND OF ATTACK THEY DID ON 9/11.
I DON'T THINK THAT ORGANIZATION COULD DO WHAT THEY DID ON 9/11.
WE'VE GONE A LONG WAY TO HELP CREATE A DECENT PLACE FOR THE
AFGHAN PEOPLE TO LIVE, AND THEY HAVE BECOME OUR ALLIES AND
FRIENDS.
BUT THE WORK ISN'T DONE YET, AND THAT'S A HARD TRUTH, THAT'S A
HARD REALITY, BUT SOMETIMES THESE THINGS TAKE TIME.
AS YOU KNOW, I'M ON BOOK TOUR ABOUT A BOOK ABOUT GERMAN
UNIFICATION.
THANK YOU.
I WAS HOPING YOU WOULD DO THAT.
>> Stephen: NICE SEGUE.
IT'S CALLED "TO BUILD A BETTER WORLD."
>> RIGHT.
AND THIS IS THE STORY.
THIS BOOK WAS FIRST ISSUED AS A BOOK IN 1994 CALLED "GERMANY
UNIFIED AND EUROPE FRANCE FORMED," AND MY CO-AUTHOR AND I
HAD BEEN YOUNG STAFFERS ON THE GEORGE H.W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION
WHEN GERMANY WAS UNIFIED.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT GERMANY HAS NOW BEEN UNIFIED THIS COMING
HERE 30 YEARS.
BUT GERMANY WAS DIVIDED FROM 1945 UNTIL 1990.
IT TOOK THAT 45 YEARS TO BRING A STABLE AND ENDURING PEACE IN
YOUR OPINION.
SO SOMETIMES THESE THINGS TAKE TIME, AND I HOPE WE HAVE THE
KIND OF PATIENCE AND THE KIND OF FORESIGHT THAT THE PEOPLE WHO
ENDED THE COLD WAR ON TERMS FAVORABLE TO US, I HOPE WE CAN
DO THE SAME THIS TIME AROUND.
>> Stephen: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE TERMS THAT ARE DEVELOPING
RIGHT NOW?
BECAUSE THIS IS TO BUILD A BETTER WORLD AGAIN, TALK ABOUT
THE END OF THE COLD WAR, NOW WE'RE BACK INTO ANOTHER FIND OF
COLD WAR, A SIMILAR CONFLICT WITH RUSSIA AND PUTIN.
YOU HAVE THE BREXIT.
BASICALLY THE POST-WAR ALLIANCE IS BREAKING UP OR BEING WEAKENED
WITH THE HELP OF THE RUSSIA'S.
>> THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.
>> Stephen: HOW MUCH LA POOP ARE WE IN IN EUROPE RIGHT NOW?
>> IT'S NOT A GOOD STORY IN EUROPE NOW.
IN THIS BOOK, WE TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO A
NUMBER OF THE VECTORS, AS WE CALL THEM, A NUMBER OF THE
ELEMENTS -- WELL WE'RE ACADEMICS, PLEASE FORGIVE --
>> Stephen: SURE, SURE.
-- A NUMBER OF THE ELEMENTS WE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT.
IF YOU TAKE GERMANY ITSELF, IN MANY WAYS, GERMANY UNIFIED
SUCCESSFULLY, BUT THE ALTERNATIVE FOR GERMANY WHICH IS
THE RIGHT WING POP LIST GERMAN PARTY, IT IS STRONGEST IN THE
EAST, WHICH SUGGESTS SOMEHOW THE EAST STILL FEELS HUMILIATED BY
WHAT HAPPENED.
IF YOU TAKE THE RUSSIANS, OF COURSE, WHERE I THINK
ADMINISTRATIONS FROM GEORGE H.W.
BUSH TO PRESIDENT CLINTON TO PRESIDENT BUSH II TO PRESIDENT
OBAMA, TRIED TO BRING RUSSIA INTO THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM.
NOBODY TRIED TO HUMILIATE RUSSIA.
BUT VLADIMIR PUTIN TELLS THE STORY IT WAS ALWAYS OUR GOAL TO
HUMILIATE AND ENCIRCLE RUSSIA.
I KNOW HIM WELL.
I SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH PUTIN.
HE LIKED ME AT ONE TIME BECAUSE I'M A RUSSIANIST.
HE SAID, CONDI, RUSSIA HAS ONLY BEEN GREAT WHEN RULED BY GREAT
MEN LIKE PARTY THE GREAT AND ALEXANDER THE SECOND, AND YOU
WANT TO SAY, YOU MEAN PUTIN THE GREAT?
BUT HE THINKS HE IS.
IF YOU HAVE TO EAT UKRAINIAN TERRITORY OR PROP UP BASHAR
AL-ASSAD IN SYRIA, TOO BAD, IF YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE IN VENEZUELA,
WHAT ARE THE RUSSIANS DOING IN VENEZUELA OF ALL PLACES?
SO HE'S DECIDED HE NEEDS AN ENEMY AND IT IS US.
>> Stephen: DO YOU AGREE WITH THE PRESIDENT APED THAT
PRESIDENT PUTIN SHOULD BE ALLOWED BACK INTO THE G7 AND
MAKE IT A G8.
>> NO, I DON'T THINK THEY EVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE G7.
IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE WORLD'S LARGEST ECONOMIES, AND
WHEN'S THE LAST TIME YOU BOUGHT ANYTHING MADE IN MOSCOW THAT
WASN'T MADE OF PETROLEUM, AND DON'T SAY VODKA, YOU WOULD HAVE
BOUGHT THAT FROM FRANCE THESE DAYS.
( AUDIENCE REACTS ) >> Stephen: I WAS OVER THERE
TWO YEARS AGO AND I BOUGHT A LOVELY BOX FOR MY WIFE, WHICH
I'M SURE HAS A MICROPHONE IN IT.
( LAUGHTER ) >> STEPHEN: THE BOOK "TO BUILD A
BETTER WORLD" IS AVAILABLE TOMORROW.
SECRETARY RICE, EVERYBODY!
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH BILL SKARSGARD!