In a recent opinion piece on CNN.
Com Van,
you wrote, The police who killed Tyre
Nichols were black,
but they might still have been driven
by racism.
And I was struck by the part of the piece
where you wrote this.
One of the sad facts
about anti-black racism
is that black people
ourselves are not immune
to its pernicious effects.
Society's message
that black people are inferior,
unworthy and dangerous is pervasive over
many decades.
Numerous experiments have shown
that these ideas
can infiltrate black minds
as well as white.
Self hatred is a real thing.
So you believe
this racial
bias played a role in
the officer's behaviors?
Yes, I do.
Because first of all, black
people are at risk from police
no matter what color black, white, brown.
You talk to African-Americans,
they'll tell you it doesn't matter.
There's this pervasive view
from law enforcement
that if you're black or dangerous
and I think some people think, oh,
also a white police officer
going after a black person,
you understand the racial implications.
The problem is
there are whole neighborhoods
that in many cities
are just considered
by police departments of war zones
and anything goes there.
And so
I think we have to have
a more nuanced view
of what's going on to root out a racism.
It's not just about having black cops
or white cops or brown cops.
It's about having cops
that are trained to respect everyone
and who are disciplined
and punished when they don't.
And we don't have that in place.
Black people are at risk
no matter the color of the police.
Officer.
If for some reason
your opinion
has been a bit controversial,
at least from what
I've seen on social media.
What has the backlash sounded like and
what is your race,
your response to your critics?
Oh, well, listen,
I think some people say, hey, listen,
you guys just want to find race
no matter what.
You're just going to scream racism,
even if it's all black again,
scream racism.
And I understand
it does seem weird
when we're saying
there is a racial dimension here,
even though the police
are African-American.
But I think what's important
for us to be able to do is
this is about power.
It's not about black.
It's about blue.
It's about power.
And when you have
when you have police officers who know
in certain neighborhoods,
they better not act that way.
But in other neighborhoods,
they can't act that way.
That's about power.
That's about domination.
And so I think it's important
that we use
this as an opportunity
to get more nuanced and more clear
about the dangers
that African-Americans face
from police officers, period,
when there is not accountability.
Yeah.
And you also make
the point, Van,
that at the end of the day,
it is the race of the victim
who is brutalized.
I'm quoting your article,
not the race of the violent cop
that is most relevant in determining
determining whether racial bias
is a factor in police violence.
How do we as a society
all the way from the federal government
down to individual police departments
in our communities
prevent this from happening again
from adding to this long
list of black deaths?
Unfortunately, tragically,
in this country?
You know, unfortunately, after
George Floyd,
we had people marching of all colors.
There were Black Lives Matter protests
where there were no black people.
There were people of all colors,
white people saying
something needs to be done.
Unfortunately, the federal government
still has not passed
a single piece of legislation
since George Floyd to make a difference.
Thankfully,
President Biden did do x
some executive orders.
It's not enough.
And so I think it's time now
for us to relook.
Here we are almost three years later,
there has been no federal change
in the law to make this stuff go away.
And so I think that
this should be a chance
for us to relook at it.
I also just want to say,
you know,
human rights abuses
happen all around the world.
And often the human rights abusers
look exactly like the people
they're abusing the Philippines,
what the law enforcement's doing there
with this
unbelievable attack
on the community around drug enforcement.
Those people, all look the same.
They talk the same.
Human rights
abuses are about power, often
discredited and marginalized.
Minorities get the brunt of it.
But it's about power.
And so we have to start saying
we don't want human rights abuses
in the United States from any color cop.
And we don't want the black.
We continue to bear the brunt of it.
You know, I know
that a pivotal moment in your life
as a human being, as a black man
and also as a lawyer was the Rodney
King beating, what, 30 some years ago.
I remember
being in California
watching these images as a kid play out.
Yes, very traumatizing.
And I know you dedicated
much of your career
to to helping reform the system.
I'm just curious
to know what impact this Tyree
Nichols case has had on you as a human.
You know,
because I've seen reactions
from the black community,
from friends of mine
who told me
that they refused to watch the video.
They couldn't
do it emotionally
because it would just bring them back
to reliving
the trauma
of seeing yet
another black person
being treated in this way.
Did you watch the video
and how how has this
changed you or impacted you?
Well, you know,
I wouldn't have watched it
except I had to because I work at CNN.
So we all watched it together
and we all have the same impact.
You know, this is it's hard
because, you know, I have black sons
and they're not unlike Tyree.
You know, Tyree is a skateboard kid.
He's
a Starbucks aficionado.
He's an Instagram photographer.
He's he's he's a good kid.
He was a good kid.
And I got a kid that loves know,
rip stick and and Starbucks and all.
And it's every black parent's nightmare
that you're a kid
who has never been in trouble before,
gets somehow in a situation
where his humanity cannot be seen
and his humanity cannot be honored.
And you saw him.
You were saying,
you know, sir, and hey, calm down.
The only calm voice in that entire thing
was Tyree trying to calm the police down
and the fighting,
the brutality got so bad,
the pepper spray, which is a horrifically
caustic chemical, got to him.
He jumped up and ran,
and it cost him his life.
You know,
that should not happen
for a traffic stop.
And so, again, it rips back the scars.
It rips off the scabs.
My sister said she couldn't watch it.
A lot of people just couldn't watch it.
I frankly wouldn't have watched it,
except it was my job.
But to see him
being pummeled and beaten and stood up
and punched in the face over
and over again, it was horrifying.
And, you know, I
I hope this galvanized some action.
I am proud
that the city of Memphis,
after George Floyd
changed some of their rules
and regulations and policies
so they could take swift action.
And you saw that swift action,
but the swift action shouldn't
just come in
this one case with by black cops.
People are being beaten right
now, conceivably in similar situations.
They may have a video camera,
but bad things are happening
and we need a chance
to do something about it.
Yeah, something
absolutely needs to change.
Van Jones,
really appreciate this conversation.
Thank you so much.