>> Announcer: From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE,
covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018.
Brought to you by Red Hat,
the Cloud Native Computing Foundation,
and the its ecosystem partners.
>> Okay, welcome back everyone.
Live here in Seattle for KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018,
with theCUBE's coverage I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman.
We've been there from the beginning watching
this community grow into a powerhouse.
Almost a Moore's Law like growth, doubling every,
actually six months, if you think about it.
>> Chris: Yeah it's pretty wild.
>> Chris Aniszczyk, CTO and COO of the CNCF,
the Cloud Native Computing Foundation,
great to see you again.
Thanks for coming on.
>> Super stoked to be here.
Thank you for being with us since the beginning.
>> So it's been fun to watch you guys,
CNCF has done an exceptional job,
I thought, a fabulous job of how you guys have built out
a great community, open-source community
as the main persona target,
but brought in the vendor on terms that really work
for open-source, Linux foundation,
great shepherding this thing through, now you have,
basically, looks like a conference.
>> Yeah.
>> End user conference, vendors are here,
still open-source is pure.
The growth has been phenomenal.
Just take a minute to give us the update
on just some of the stats, massive growth.
>> Yeah, sure.
I mean you know, we're 8,000 people here today,
which is absolutely wild.
What's actually crazy is when we planned this event,
it was about two years ago
when we had to start booking a venue,
figuring out how many people may be here.
And two years ago we thought 5,000
would have been a fantastic number.
Well, we got to 8,000.
We have about 1500 to 2,000 people on the wait list
that could not get in.
So, obviously we did not plan properly
but sometimes it's hard to predict
kind of the uptake of technology these days.
Things just move quickly.
I think we've kind of benefited from the turnaround
that's happening in the industry right now
where companies are finally looking
to modernize their infrastructure.
Whether it's moving to the cloud or just modernizing things,
and that's happening everywhere,
from traditional enterprises to internet scale companies.
Everyone's looking to kind of modernize things
and we're kind of at the forefront of that.
>> I mean the challenge of events is,
some of it is provisioning, over provision.
You don't show up, you want elastic, dynamic, agile--
>> I want the Cloud Native events.
>> Programmable space that could just go
auto scale when you need it. >> Exactly.
>> All kidding aside, congratulations on the success.
But one thing we've been covering
on SiliconANGLE and theCUBE,
and you guys have been actually executing on,
is the growth in China in open-source.
And it's been around for a while but just the scale,
just pure numbers, tell them about the success in China
and the impact to the open-source community and business.
>> Yeah.
We put on our first event in Shanghai, KubeCon China.
It was fantastic.
We sold out at 2500 people.
Always a little bit difficult
to do your first event in China.
I have many stories to share on that one,
but the amount of scale,
in terms of software deployment there are just fascinating.
You kind of have these companies like ofo,
is like a bike sharing system right.
You know in China they have hundreds of millions
of these bicycles that they have
to kind of manage in an infrastructural way.
The software that you use to actually do that
has to be built very well.
And so the trend that we're actually seeing
in CNCF now is about 10%,
we have three projects that were born in China,
dealing with China-scale problems.
So one of those projects is TiKV,
which is kind of a very well fine-tuned built
distributed key value store that is used
by a lot of the Chinese com providers
and folks like ofo and LME out there
that are just dealing with hundreds of millions of users.
It's fascinating.
I think the trend you're going to see in the future
is there's going to be more technology
that is kind of born dealing with China-scale issues,
and having those lessons being shared
with the rest of the world and collaborate.
One of the goals in CNCF for us
is to help bridge these communities.
In China about 25% of our attendance was international,
which was higher then we expected.
But we had dual live simultaneous translation for everyone,
to kind of try to bridge these...
>> It's a big story.
The consumption and the contribution side
is just phenomenal.
>> China is our number two contributor to all CNCF projects,
it's very impressive in my opinion.
>> So Chris there was a lot in the keynote.
I wondered, give us a little insight,
it's different for a foundation in open-source communities
than it is for company when you talk about
the core product being Kubernetes
and then all these other projects,
you've got the incubating projects,
the ones that have been elevated, new FCD comes into it,
how do you do the juggling act of this?
>> Honestly, the whole goal of the foundation
is basically to cultivate and sustain,
and kind of grow projects that come in.
Some are going to work and be very successful,
some may never leave the sandbox,
which is our early stage.
So today I was very excited to finally have etcd
come as an official incubating project.
This is our 31st project, which is a little bit wild,
since we started, it was just Kubernetes.
We had other projects that moved
from, say, sandbox to incubating.
So in China, one of our big announcements was Harbor,
which is a container registry, or actually,
technically, we call it a Cloud Native Registry,
because it does support things like helm charts,
it doesn't only host container-based artifacts.
It moved up to the incubating level
and that is being embedded.
It's in all of Cloud Foundry's and Pivotal's products.
It's used by some cloud providers in China
as their kind of registry as a service.
Like their equivalent to ECR or GCR, essentially.
And we've just seen incredible growth
across all of our projects.
I mean, we have three graduated projects.
Envoy recently, which you saw Matt, Constance, and Jose
on stage a little bit to talk about.
To me, what I really like about Envoy and Prometheus,
these are two projects that were not born from a vendor.
You know.
Envoy came from Lyft
because they were just like, you know what?
We're not happy with our current kind of reverse proxy,
service proxy situation,
let's build our own open-source
and kind of share our lessons.
Prometheus, born from SoundCloud.
So I think CNCF has a good mix
of, hey, we have some initial vendor-driven projects,
like Kubernetes came from Google
but now it's used by a ton of people.
But then you have other projects
that were born from the end-user community.
I think having that healthy mix is good for everyone.
>> I think the DNA of that early on in the culture
has been a successful one for you guys.
Not being vendor-led, being end-user led,
but vendors can come in and participate.
>> Chris: Yeah, absolutely.
>> So talk about the end-user perspective
because we're very interested,
a lot of people are interested in end-user.
What are they doing with it?
It used to be a joke.
I stood up a bunch Hadoop but what are you using it for?
What are people using Kubernetes for?
You've got Apple, Uber, Capital One,
Comcast, GoDaddy, Airbnb.
They're all investing in Kubernetes as their main stack.
>> And CNCF projects, not only Kubernetes.
>> But what does that mean
when they say Kubernetes as a stack?
It's kind of been encapsulated to include other things.
People are looking at this as a real alternative.
Can you explain what that is about?
>> So, I think people have to realize that CNCF
is essentially more than just Kubernetes.
Cloud Native is more than just Kubernetes.
So what we'll see is, take a company like Lyft.
Lyft did not start using Kubernetes,
they are kind of on that migration path now
but Lyft started to use Envoy, Prometheus, gRPC,
other technologies that kind of lead them
to that Cloud Native journey
that eventually they're like, you know what?
Maybe we don't need our homegrown orchestrator.
We'll go use that.
And use, (huffs)
Everyone falls in differently in kind of a community.
Some people start with Kubernetes
and eventually subsume the other kind of ancillary projects.
>> This is what the project cloud is about.
Let me rephrase the question.
So when people say,
because this is a real trend we've been reporting on this,
the CNCF stack, people have language semantics
on how that's couched.
Oh, on the Kubernetes--
>> I don't like stack
because it means there's one proscribed solution,
where I think it's more like an a la carte model.
>> Well if I quote the CNCF stack,
if there was a word for it, as an alternative,
as a solution base with Kubernetes at the core of it, right.
Okay, cool.
What is that usage being looked like?
How is that developing?
How are end users looking at the CNCF holistically
with Kubernetes at the core?
>> So we have one of the largest end-user communities
out there of any open-source foundation.
We have about 80 members.
When we talk to them directly,
why are they adopting CNCF projects and technology?
Most of the time is they want
to deploy software faster, right?
They want to use modern CICD tools
and just development patterns.
So it's all about faster time to market
and making the developers lives easier
so they're actually able to deliver business customer value.
And it's basically similar to a whole DevOps mantra, right.
If I could ship software faster
and it's easier for my developers to get stuff done,
I'm delivering value to whatever my end-user customer is
at the end of the day.
If you go to the CNCF end-user website,
we have case studies from Nordstrom, Capital One,
I think Lyft is there.
Just a bunch of people that, we moved to these technologies
because it improved the way we could monitor software,
how fast we could ship.
It's all about faster time to market,
and modernizing their infrastructure.
>> Chris, give us a little bit of a view coming forward.
We're on 1.13 for Kubernetes, if I read it right.
The contribution slowed down a little bit
because we're actually reaching a level of maturity.
>> Chris: Kubernetes is boring and mature.
>> What do you see as we come, other than continued growth?
>> So I think the wider ecosystem is going to continue to grow.
So if you actually look at Kubernetes directly,
it has been very focused on moving things
out of the core as much as possible
and trying to force people to extend things.
I don't know if you saw, Tim Hockin had this great talk
in terms of how all the Kubernetes components
are either being ripped out
or turned into custom resource definition of CODs.
Basically trying to make Kubernetes
as extensible as possible.
Instead of trying to ram things into Kubernetes,
hey, use the built in extensibility layer.
>> John: Decompose a little bit.
>> Decompose and the analogy here would be like
kernel space versus user space if you're going to Linux.
All the exciting things tend to happen
in user space these days but, yeah,
the kernel is still important,
actively contributed to by a ton of people,
very critical, everything.
But a lot of the action happens in user space.
And I think you'll see the same thing with Kubernetes,
where it will kind of become like Linux
where the kernel of Kubernetes, very stable, mature,
focused on basically not breaking
and trying to keep it as simple as possible
and built good extensibility mechanisms
so folks could plug in whatever systems.
We saw this with storage in Kubernetes.
A lot of the initial storage drivers, flex volume stuff,
was baked into the Kubernetes with a new effort
called the container storage interface.
They all pulled that out and made they basically built
an extensibility mechanism so any company or any project
could bring in their storage solution.
>> One of the key trends we're seeing,
obviously, in cloud is automation.
We see serverless around the corner,
you see all these things going on
around the cool things you guys are building.
As automation continues to move down the track,
where is that going to impact and create value
for customer end-users as they roll with the CNCF?
So Kubernetes at some point could be auto,
why even be managing clusters?
Well, that should be automated at some point.
>> I mean, hey, you could do it both ways.
A lot of people love the managed service approach.
If I could pay a large hyper-scale cloud provider
to manage everything, the more the merrier.
Some want the freedom to roll their own.
Some may want to pay a vendor,
I don't know, Red Hat OpenShift looks great,
let's pay them to help manage data.
Or I just roll alone.
And we've seen it all.
You know it really depends on the organization.
We've seen some very high end banks
or financial institutions that have
very good technical chops.
They're okay rolling on their own.
Some may not be as interested in that
and just pay a vendor to manage it.
>> John: It's a choice issue.
>> For us it's all goodness, whatever you prefer.
I think longer term we'll see more people,
just for the convenience of managed services, go that route.
But for CNCF Kubernetes there's multiple ways to do it;
you could go Vanilla, you could go Managed Service,
you could go through a vendor like Rancher or OpenShift.
The cool thing about all these things
is they all are conformant
to the Kubernetes certified program,
so it means there's no breakage or forking,
everyone is compliant.
>> So for the people that are watching
that couldn't make it here
or are on the waiting list, or doing LobbyCon.
>> Chris: I'm sorry, I'm sorry for the waiting list.
>> This is actually a good venue to do LobbyCon,
there's places to meet here.
I know a lot of people actually in town
kind of LobbyCon-ing it.
But for the people that aren't here,
what's the most important story that's being told?
I know we're not being talked about.
What is happening here?
What should people know about this year?
In your mind's eye, in your understanding of the program,
and how it's developed early on,
what's the most important thing?
>> I think in general CNCF, Cloud Native, Kubernetes
all have matured a lot in the last three years,
especially the last 12-18 months, where you've seen...
Earlier it was all about technical-savvy folks
scratching their itch.
Now the end-users that I'm talking to,
you have like Maersk, what does Maersk do?
They actually ship containers, right?
But now they are using Kubernetes
to manage containers on the containers.
>> John: They're in the container business.
>> I'm seeing traditional insurance companies.
So I think what we're doing is we're basically hitting,
we're kind of past that threshold
of early adopters and tinkerers,
and now we're moving to full-blown mainstream adoption.
Part of that is the cloud providers
are all offering Managed Kubernetes,
so it's convenient for companies that move in the cloud.
And then on the distro front, OpenShift, PKS, Rancher,
they're all mature products.
So there's just a lot of stability
and maturity in the ecosystem.
>> Just talking about the mature stuff,
give us your take on Knative.
What should people be looking at that?
How does Serverless fit into all this?
>> So Serverless, you know we love Serverless in CNCF.
We just view it as another kind of programing model
that eventually runs on some type of containerized stack.
For us at CNCF, we have a Serverless working group
that's been putting out whitepapers.
We have a spec around cloud events standardized.
I think Knative is a fantastic approach
of how to basically build a,
kind of like CNCF where it's a set of components
that you can use to build your own serverless framework.
I think the adoption has been great.
We've actually been talking to them about potentially
bringing in some components of Knative into CNCF.
I think, if you want to provide
your own serverless offering,
you're going to need the components in Knative
to make that happen.
I've seen SAPs picked up on it.
GitLab just announced a serverless offering
based on Knative today.
I think it's a great technology.
It's still very early days.
I think serverless is great and will be continually used,
but it's one option of many.
We're going to have containers, we're going to have serverless,
we're going to have mainframes.
It's going to be a mix of everything.
>> I'm old enough to remember the old client server days
when multi-vendor was a big buzz word.
Multi-cloud now is a subtext here.
I think that one of the big stories in issue of the maturity
is that you're starting to see people, I want choice.
And hybrid-cloud is the word today but I think ultimately
people view it as a multi-cloud environment of resource.
>> So one interesting thing about KubeCon,
I think one of our reasons that we've grown so much
is if you look at it, there's really no other event
you can go to that is truly multi-cloud.
You have all the HyperScale folks,
you've got your end-users and vendors in one area, right?
Versus you going to a vendor-specific event.
So I think that's kind of been part of our benefit
and then luck to kind of stumble in this
where everyone is in the same room.
I think next year, big push on bringing all the clouds.
>> Well, Chris, thanks for spending the time.
I know you're super busy.
CTO and COO of the CNCF, really making things happen.
This is a real, important technology wave,
the cloud computing, and having the kind of choices
in ecosystem around open-source is making it happen.
Congratulations to your success.
We're going to continue coverage here.
Day one of three days of CUBE coverage.
I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman.
Stay with us for more after this short break.
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