AND BARB McQUADE. NO BETTER DAY TO HAVE YOU HERE.
ON A TAKEAWAY, THE WAY PEOPLE
FEEL ABOUT THIS DECISION, WAS
THE JUDGE WITHIN HIS RIGHTS?
>> YES, IS THE SHORT ANSWER.
BUT I HAVE TO SAY I WAS STUNNED
BECAUSE GENERALLY SPEAKING
JUDGES DO STAY SOMEWHAT WITHIN
THE GUIDELINES THAT ARE
RECOMMENDED.
RECOMMENDED. THIS IS A MASSIVE DEPARTURE.
I MEAN YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT
GETTING A FRACTION OF WHAT THE
SENTENCING GUIDELINES
SENTENCING GUIDELINES RECOMMENDED.
RECOMMENDED. NOW THE SENTENCING GUIDELINES
DON’T HAVE THE TEETH THEY USED.
TO WHEN I WAS A YOUNG LAWYER
WHEN FOR THE 20 MINUTES I WAS A
LAWYER, THE JUDGES HATED THEM
BECAUSE THEY TOOK AWAY THE
DISCRETION AND THE REASON FOR
THE SENTENCING GUIDELINES WAS
THERE WAS DISPARITY BECAUSE
WHITE-COLLAR CRIMINALS WOULD GET
OFF EASY AND OTHER PEOPLE
WOULDN’T AND THEY WERE TRYING TO
BRING UNIFORMITY INTO SENTENCING
BECAUSE OF THE SUPREME COURT
DECISIONS THE GUIDELINES ARE
LARGELY DISCRETIONARY AND NOW
YOU SEE A SITUATION LIKE THIS
WHERE YOU LOOK AT WHAT THE JUDGE
HAD BEFORE HIM, YES, HE’S WITHIN
HIS RIGHTS AND ALLOWED TO USE
HIS DISCRETION, BUT THIS IS A
PASSIVE DEPARTURE FROM SOMEONE
WHO, A., DID NOT SHOW ANY
REMORSE, HE SHOWED A LOT OF
SYMPATHY FOR HIMSELF IN THE
COURTROOM AND THE JUDGE NOTED
THAT.
THAT. AND SOMEONE WHO THIS JUDGE KNOWS
BROKE A PLEA DEAL AND ANOTHER
JUDGE FOUND HAD LIED IN THE --
POST INDICTMENT, MOST
POST-CONVICTION.
POST-CONVICTION. SO NO MATTER WHERE YOUR COMMIT
DAL LEANINGS ARE OR HOW YOU FEEL
ABOUT THE EVIDENCE IN THE CASE,
WHEN THE JUDGE DECIDES THIS IS A
CASE WHERE I’M GOING TO DO A
MASSIVE DOWNWARD DEPARTURE FROM
THE GUIDELINES, I HAVE TO SAY
I’M SCRATCHING MY HEAD AND I’M
TRYING -- I WANT TO UNDERSTAND.
I GET IT.
I GET IT. HE SAID AN OTHER WISE BLAMELESS
LIFE AND YOU COULD TELL THIS
JUDGE IS NOT A FAN OF THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL BY SOME OF THE
STATEMENTS THAT HE SAID.
HE FEELS LIKE THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL IS OVER HIS SKIS, FAR
OUTSIDE OF THE SCOPE.
I THINK IT IS A STUNNER.
NO MATTER HOW YOU SLICE IT.
>> BARBARA, YOU CALLED THE
SENTENCE ATROCIOUSLY LOW.
DOES IT REPORT POORLY ON THE
ROBERT MUELLER TEAM GOING
FORWARD AND THE INVESTIGATION
AND WHAT THEY FACE?
>> I DON’T THINK IT WILL DERAIL
THEM.
THEM. I DO WORRY THAT IT DOES SEND A
MESSAGE TO OTHER WOULD-BE
COOPERATORS THAT JUST STAY THE
COURSE AND GO TO TRIAL AND IF
EVEN YOU ARE CONVICTED YOU WON’T
GET A LOT OF PRISON TIME.
I DON’T THINK THAT IS A LIKELY
SCENARIO FOR MOST DEFENDANTS BUT
YOU CAN’T COUNTS ON EVERY JUDGE
TO BE AS LENIENT AS JUDGE ELLIS
WAS HERE.
WAS HERE. JUDGE ELLIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND
OF JUDGE FOR WHICH THE
SENTENCING GUIDELINES WERE
CREATED, TO PROTECT AGAINST
THOSE KIND OF UNWARRANTED
DISPARITIES AND OUTLIER CASES
BUT IT’S AN OUTLIER AND MOST
JUDGES ASSIGNED A CASE ARE MARFA
MORE LIKELY TO COMPLY WITH THE
GUIDELINES AND I’M HOPING IT
WON’T DERAIL ANYONE INTERESTED
IN COOPERATING.
IN COOPERATING. AND THEN OF COURSE THERE IS ALSO
THE BACKSTOP OF THE SENTENCE
FROM JUDGE JACKSON NEXT WEEK IN
WASHINGTON, D.C.
WASHINGTON, D.C. SHE CAN SENTENCE PAUL MANAFORT
TO UP TO AN ADDITIONAL TEN YEARS
CONSECUTIVE TO THESE FOUR YEARS.
SO HE COULD STILL BE LOOKING AT
14 YEARS.
14 YEARS. AND ALSO WITH REGARD TO THE IDEA
THAT THE STATEMENT THAT
MANAFORT’S LAWYER SAID WITH
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF
COLLUSION WITH GOVERNMENT
OFFICIALS FROM RUSSIA.
IT IS A VERY SPECIFIC THING TO
STATE.
STATE. AND IT DOESN’T THAT THERE IS NOT
COLLUSION WITH OTHER INDIVIDUALS
WHO ARE NOT GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS
FROM RUSSIA.
FROM RUSSIA. SUCH AS CONSTANTINE KILIMNIK WHO
WAS ACCUSED OF BEING AN
INTELLIGENCE OFFICER FROM
RUSSIA.
RUSSIA. SO I THINK THERE ARE MORE
REDACTION FROM THE DOCUMENTS
SUGGEST ROBERT MUELLER AND HIS
TEAM CONTINUE TO INVESTIGATE
RUSSIA AND THE CIGAR BAR MEETING
ARE STILL OUT THERE AND SO I
DON’T THINK WE’VE REACHED THE
END OF THE ROAD WITH REGARDS TO
CONSPIRACY WITH RUSSIA.
>> COULD BE OLEG DERIPASKA WHO
PAUL MANAFORT WAS IN THE HOLE TO
TO THE TUNE OF $19 MILLION WHEN
HE JOINED THE CAMPAIGN AND
OLEG’S BUSINESS WAS STRANGLED
DUE TO RUSSIAN SANCTIONS.
MIDWIN, THEY LOOKED AT AVERAGE
PRISON TERM IN THE VIRGINIA
EASTERN DISTRICT SO THE AVERAGE
SENTENCE FOR FRAUD, 3 YEARS.
GUN-RELATED CHARGES 5 1/2 YEAR
AND DRUG TRAFFICKING SEVEN
YEARS.
YEARS. IS THE ISSUE THAT MANAFORT GOT
AN USUALLY LOW SENTENCE BECAUSE
IT IS MANAFORT OR THAT
WHITE-COLLAR CRIMINALS GET
HOOKED UP.
HOOKED UP. >> WHITE-COLLAR CRIMINALS GET
HOOKED UP.
HOOKED UP. AND THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR
AMERICA TO SEE.
I’VE BEEN SEEING SINCE THE
MUELLER INVESTIGATION THIS IS
SHINING A SPOTLIGHT ON HOW THE
JUSTICE SYSTEM TREATS SOME
PEOPLE AND OTHERS.
AND DEFENSE ATTORNEYS SUCH AS
MYSELF HAVE ALWAYS SAID THE
JUSTICE SYSTEM IN MANY WAYS IS
UNJUST TO CERTAIN PEOPLE.
WHO YOU LOOK AT KHALIF PROUDER,
A YOUNG BLACK MAN WHO SPEND
YEARS IN JAIL FOR AN ALLEGED
STEALING OF A BACKPACK AND NEVER
CONVICTED WHEN YOU LOOK AT
CRYSTAL MASON IN TEXAS, WHO IS
SENTENCED TO FIVE YEARS IN JAIL
FOR VOTING WHILE ON PROBATION.
AND WHEN YOU LOOK AT WESLEY
SNIPES, ALSO A WEALTHY MAN AND
ALSO AN ACTOR BUT ALSO BLACK,
WAS SENTENCED TO THREE YEARS IN
JAIL FOR THREE MERCHANDISES FOR
FAILING TO FILE A TAX RETURN.
SO THIS DISPARITY IS SOMETHING
THAT WE’VE BEEN SEEING FOR A
LONG TIME IN THE CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM.
JUSTICE SYSTEM. AND IT IS NOT SURPRISING, BUT IT
IS UNFORTUNATE BECAUSE WHEN YOU
LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF CRIMES
THAT MANAFORT HAS COMMITTED AND
YOU WENT THROUGH A LENGTHY
EXPLANATION OF JUST HOW FLAGRANT
AND REPEATED --
>> FOR YEARS.
>> FOR YEARS.
AND THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE LIKE
THIS WOULD GET SUCH A DOWNWARD
DEPARTURE IS REALLY UNJUST.
>> YAMICHE, RUDY GIULIANI KEEPS
ATTACKING PROSECUTORS AND
DESPITE THE BEST POSSIBLE OUT
COM.
COM. WHAT IS THE RUDY GIULIANI PLAN.
>> IT IS TO VILIFY THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL INVESTIGATION AND TO
ARGUE IN A THE PRESIDENT IS
SOMEONE WHO IS BLAMELESS AND
EVERYBODY AROUND HIM ARE BEING
PICKED ON BECAUSE IT COMES DOWN
TO PEOPLE ARE MAD THAT PRESIDENT
TRUMP GOT ELECTED.
I’VE BEEN TEXTING WITH RUDY
GIULIANI THIS MORNING AND HE
WROTE TO ME JUST THIS MORNING,
THE SENTENCE WAS A LOT LESS THAN
THE ANGRY DEMOCRATS WANTED.
THEY SHOULD BE ASHAMED THEIR
HORRENDOUS TREATMENT OF PAUL
MANAFORT WHO SHE PRESSURED
RELENTLESSLY BECAUSE UNLIKE
MICHAEL COHEN HE WOULDN’T LIE
FOR THEM.
FOR THEM. THIS IS RUDY GIULIANI SAYING
THAT THE PROSECUTORS WERE
LOOKING FOR A SPECIFIC SENTENCE.
WE KNOW THEY WEREN’T BUT AS
SAVANNAH LAID OUT, ONE-FIFTH OF
THE LOWEST SENTENCE AND THAT
MEANS PROSECUTORS WOULD BE ANGRY
AND YOU DESCRIBED IN THE
COURTROOM THEY LOOKED GAUNT AND
ANGRY ONCE THE SENTENCE WAS
READ.
READ. WE HAVE THIS TRUMP MACHINE GOING
AND GETTING AROUND PAUL MANAFORT
SAYING HE’S A GOOD GUY AND THAT
IS BEING PICKED ON BECAUSE OF
HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH TRUMP.
AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT
PAUL MANAFORT MIGHT NOT HAVE
BEEN IN THE TROUBLE HAD HE NEVER
GOTTEN INVOLVED IN THE TRUMP
CAMPAIGN, THAT IS VERY TRUE IF
THAT HE WAS JUST ONE OF THE
OTHER PEOPLE IN D.C. THAT MIGHT
BE DOING THE SAME THING HE MIGHT
HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH
THIS FOR ANOTHER 20 YEARS.
>> THE WHITE-COLLAR CRIMINALS WE
DON’T GO AFTER THEM.
SAVANNAH, AT THE BEGINNING OF
THE HEARING THE JUDGE SAID THIS
HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIAN
COLLUSION AND THEN AFTERWARD
PAUL MANAFORT’S LAWYER SAID THE
SAME THING.
SAME THING. TAKE A LISTEN.
>> MR. MANAFORT FINALLY GOT TO
SPEAK FOR HIMSELF.
HE MADE CLEAR HE ACCEPTS
RESPONSIBILITY FOR HIS CONDUCT.
AND I THINK MOST IMPORTANTLY
WHAT YOU SAW TODAY IS THE SAME
THING THAT WE HAD SAID FROM DAY
ONE.
ONE. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE
THAT PAUL MANAFORT WAS INVOLVED
WITH ANY COLLUSION WITH ANY
GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL FROM RUSSIA.
>> WE GOT YOU.
HE WASN’T ON TRIAL FOR THAT.
WHY DO THEY KEEP GOING BACK TO
THIS.
THIS. >> I’LL GIVE YOU TWO
INTERPRETATIONS AND YOU DECIDE
WHICH ONE YOU LIKE.
MAYBE THE LAWYER AND JUDGE WHO
MADE THE SAME KIND OF REMARK,
COLLUSION WAS NOT AT ISSUE,
MAYBE THEY’RE TRYING TO SAY,
LOOK, ROBERT MUELLER, AND THESE
CASES AGAINST PAUL MANAFORT,
THEY ARE SO FAR OUTSIDE OF THE
SCOPE OF WHAT MUELLER’S INITIAL
COMMISSION WAS TO SEARCH FOR
COLLUSION WHICH IS THE CATCH-ALL
TERM WE USE NOW BUT AS WE KNOW
IT IS ACTUALLY CONSPIRACY.
SO MAYBE THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE
SAYING.
SAYING. THAT IS A GENEROUS
INTERPRETATION.
INTERPRETATION. MAYBE THAT LAWYER IS OUT THERE
ON THE COURTHOUSE STEPS
AUDITIONING FOR A PARDON FROM
PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO WHEN HE
HEARS NO COLLUSION IT MUST BE
LIKE THE TINGLING OF A LITTLE
BELL AND HE LOVES TO SAY IT AND
RUDY AND EVERYBODY IS SAYING IT
ALL OF THE TIME SO THERE IS TWO
DIFFERENT WAYS TO LOOK AT IT.
BUT, YES, SO FAR, ROBERT MUELLER
HASN’T BROUGHT A CASE THAT HAS
TO DO WITH CONSPIRACY, THAT GOES
TO THE HEART OF WHAT HE -- HE
WAS COMMISSIONED TO DO WHEN
ASSIGNED TO SPECIAL COUNSEL.
ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE
SPECIAL COUNSEL IN THE COURSE OF
INVESTIGATING THAT VERY
COLLUSION RUNS ACROSS CRIMES, HE
ISN’T SUPPOSED TO GIVE A PASS TO
THEM.
THEM. HE’S SUPPOSED TO PROSECUTE THEM.
OR FARM THEM OUT TO OTHER
JURISDICTIONS OR HOLD THEM FOR
HIMSELF AND TAKE THEM TO
PROSECUTION OR TO TRIAL.
SO THAT IS WHAT HE’S SUPPOSED TO
DO.
DO. HE’S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE
THAT IS NOT ON MY LIST OF TO-DO
SO WE’LL LET THAT SLIDE AND I
LIKE TO GO BACK TO YOUR BUSINESS
BACKGROUND, THAT IS HOW THEY RAN
INTO THE MARTHA STEWART CASE.
THEY WERE INVESTIGATING
SOMETHING ELSE AND RAN ACROSS
HER SITUATION.
HER SITUATION. >> I HAD A SOURCE -- A LEGAL
SOURCE AS SOON AS THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL WAS ANNOUNCED SAID THE
THING -- THE REASON WHY PEOPLE
HATE SPECIAL COUNSEL
INVESTIGATIONS IS BECAUSE THEY
COULD GO THROUGH ALL DIFFERENT
OTHER SORTS OF AVENUES, EVEN IF
IT IS NOT THE ORIGINAL INTENT
AND WHEN IT COMES TO SOMEONE
LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE
PEOPLE AROUND HIM, MONEY IS A
KEY THING THAT GETS THESE PEOPLE
IN TROUBLE.
IN TROUBLE. THAT IS A YEAR AND A HALF AGO
AND THAT SOURCE HAS BEEN
COMPLETELY DEAD ON BECAUSE THAT
IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING.
>> I ASKED BILL CLINTON HOW HE
FELT ABOUT SPECIAL COUNSEL
INVESTIGATORS AND ONCE THEY
START, WHO KNOWS WHAT WILL TURN
UP WHEN THEY START DIGGING INTO
THINGS.
THINGS. >> WHAT IS GLARING HERE ALSO IS
THAT MANAFORT HAS COMMITTED
CRIMES OVER DECADES.
WHAT WAS THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT
OF NEW YORK DOING ALL OF THIS
TIME AND THE PROSECUTORS DOING
ALL OF THIS TIME.
ONE OF THE TAKEAWAYS FROM THE
STATEMENT THAT ATTORNEY MADE
FROM THE STEPS OUTSIDE OF THE
COURTHOUSE --
COURTHOUSE -- >> RICH PEOPLE DON’T HAVE TO
WORRY ABOUT THE LAW.
>> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. LEAVE US ALONE, BUDDY.
THIS IS -- THIS IS PAR FOR THE
COURSE.
COURSE. THIS IS WHAT WE DO.
AND THE IDEA THAT MUELLER WAS
BUSY POKING AROUND, HE DIDN’T
FIND WHAT HE WAS SPECIFICALLY
TASKED WITH LOOKING AT WHICH IS
RUSSIA COLLUSION BUT ALL OF THIS
OTHER STUFF, LISTEN, BOYS WILL
BE BOYS.
BE BOYS. THIS IS WHAT WE DO.
>> WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE
JUDGE SAYING HE LIVED AN
OTHERWISE BLAMELESS LIFE WHEN
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT CHARGES
THAT GO BACK A DECADE.
>> MARTHA STEWET LED AN
OTHERWISE BLAMELESS LIFE AND
PAUL MANAFORT DIDN’T.
>> I FOUND ASTONISHING WHAT THE
JUDGE WAS SAYING IS HE HAD --
MANAFORT HAD NEVER BEEN CAUGHT.
IN OTHER WORDS, HE HAD DONE ALL
OF THESE THINGS BUT NEVER CAUGHT
AND SO THEREFORE WE LIVED AN
OTHER WISE BLAMELESS LIFE WHICH
IS INTERESTING TO LOOK AT IT.
>> WHICH GOES BACK TO THE
DISPARITIES IN THE COURTHOUSE
THEY SAY EVEN THE IDEA OF HOW
RACE AND GENDER AND CLASS PLAY
INTO THE COURT SYSTEM, WHEN YOU
WALK INTO THAT COURTROOM, DOES A
JUDGE LOOK AT YOU AND SAY WELL
THIS YOUNG MAN WHO GOT CAUGHT
STEALING $100 WORTH OF QUARTERS
AT THE LAUNDRY DEPARTMENT OR THE
LAUNDRY MAT, DO THEY LIVE A
BLAMELESS LIFE OR DO I SAY HE’S
PART OF A PROBLEM AND I’VE SEEN
OTHER PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE HIM
OR HE DESERVES TO HAVE 72 MONTHS
WHICH IS WHAT A LAWYER TWEETED
JUST YESTERDAY.
JUST YESTERDAY. >> AND CAN WE THROW ONE FACT ON
TO THE TABLE BECAUSE YOU JUST
SHOWED THE STATISTICS IN THE
EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
WHAT THE -- THE DIFFERENT KINDS
OF CASES AND WHAT THEY GET.
IT DID SHOW A FRAUD CASE, THE
AVERAGE IS THREE YEARS.
MANAFORT GETS FOUR.
ONE OF THE JUDGE’S RATIONAL WAS
THESE KIND OF CASES, THE
SENTENCE HE GAVE TO MANAFORT WAS
IN LINE WITH WHAT THOSE KINDS OF
CASES IN HIS JURISDICTION GET,SO