BACK TO YOU.
SEAN: EDWARD LAWRENCE THANK YOU.
JOINING ME NOW IS STEVE MOORE,
FREEDOM WORKS CHIEF ECONOMIST,
COMMITTEE TO UNLEASH PROSPERITY,
THE AUTHOR OF "GOVZILLA."
STEVE, GOOD TO SEE YOU.
I WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THIS
JOE BIDEN SPEECH SAYING THAT HIS
POLICIES HAVE CREATED A
MANUFACTURING BOOM IN AMERICA.
TRUE OR FALSE?
>> WELL WE HAD A MANUFACTURING
BOOM UNDER DONALD TRUMP
ACTUALLY.
SEAN: YEAH.
>> THEN COVID HIT.
SO WE LOST A LOT OF
MANUFACTURING JOBS.
ALL WE’VE REALLY DONE SO FAR,
SEAN, RECAPTURE THE JOBS
DESTROYED AS A RESULT OF THE
LOCKDOWNS DURING COVID.
WE HAD A MUCH BETTER
MANUFACTURING RENAISSANCE UNDER
TRUMP’S POLICIES OF
DEREGULATION, A LOWER CORPORATE
TAX RATE, AND OTHER POLICIES
THAT REALLY ADVANTAGED AMERICAN
COMPANIES.
SEAN: I WANT TO TALK TO YOU
ABOUT DEBT.
WE HAVE MORE DEBT IN THE
THIRD QUARTER OF 2012, LARGEST
DEBT INCREASE SINCE 2007.
>> YEAH.
SEAN: A LOT OF THAT IS FROM
MORTGAGES.
38 BILLION OF IT IS FROM CREDIT
CARD DEBT.
>> YES.
SEAN: WHAT IMPACT WILL HAVE ON
THE ECONOMY AS WE LOOK INTO THE
FIRST QUARTER OF 2023, AND
SECOND QUARTER OF 2023.
>> SOMETHING THAT MAKES ME VERY
NERVOUS ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF
THE ECONOMY, SEAN.
YOU’VE HAD THIS MASSIVE INCREASE
IN CONSUMER DEBT.
I THINK THE NUMBER IS CLOSE TO A
TRILLION DOLLARS OF OUTSTANDING
CONSUMER DEBT.
A LOT OF THAT IS ON THE CREDIT
CARD.
I DON’T KNOW ABOUT THE DUFFY
HOUSEHOLD BUT I TAN TALK ABOUT
THE MOREHOUSE HOLD, IF WE RUN
CREDIT CARD UP MONTH AFTER MONTH
WE’RE IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE.
THAT IS KIND OF WHAT IS
HAPPENING WITH A LOT OF
FAMILIES.
THE QUESTION IS WHY IS THAT
HAPPENING?
THE ANSWER IS PRETTY OBVIOUS
WHEN YOU HAVE WAGES RISING AT
5%, INFLATION RISING AT 8%,
PEOPLES INCOME ARE FALLING
FURTHER AND FURTHER BEHIND THEIR
LIVING STANDARD.
THEY HAVE TO GO FURTHER INTO
DEBT TO MAINTAIN THE LIVING
STANDARD THEY HAD FOR EXAMPLE,
WHEN TRUMP WAS PRESIDENT.
THAT CREDIT CARD DEBT, ON TOP OF
YOU KNOW THE $4 TRILLION OF DEBT
THAT BIDEN HAS ADDED MAKES US
KIND OF DEBT NATION RIGHT NOW.
IT SCARES ME.
I DON’T WANT TO SEE ANOTHER
BUBBLE BURST LIKE WHAT HAPPENED
IN 2008.
I HAVE TO SAY, SEAN, ANOTHER BIG
STORY HAPPENED TODAY RELATED TO
THIS, DID YOU SEE FANNIE MAE AND
FREDDIE MAC ARE NOW GOING TO BE
INSURING ONE MILLION DOLLAR
HOMES.
I MEAN IS THAT THE JOB OF THE
TAXPAYER TO INSURE SOMEBODY AT A
MILLION DOLLAR HOME?
I DON’T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE
LOGIC OF THAT.
SEAN: WE FOUGHT THAT WHEN I WAS
ON THE FINANCIAL SERVICES
COMMITTEE IN THE HOUSE BUT THEY
KEEP UPPING THESE NUMBERS.
WE WERE TALKING YESTERDAY ON THE
SHOW THAT AMERICANS ARE SPENDING
A LOT MORE MONEY FOR THE HOLIDAY
SEASON.
THEY’RE OUT SHOPPING USING
CREDIT CARDS.
I WONDER, THIS IS NOT JUST FOR
NECESSITIES.
INCREASED COSTS AT GROCERY STORE
OR INCREASED COSTS AT THE GAS
PUMP.
THEY’RE BUYING PRESENTS.
DOES THE AMERICAN CONSUMER FEEL
PRETTY OPTIMISTIC WHAT IS COMING
IN THE AMERICAN ECONOMY OR WHAT
IS REGARD WITH INFLATION?
SOMETHING ELSE IS HAPPENING.
IT WOULDN’T MAKE ANY SENSE
UNLESS THINGS WILL GET BETTER?
>> IT IS HARD TO GET AT THE
PSYCHOLOGY OF THE AMERICAN
SHOPPER.
SEAN: YEAH.
>> I WILL SAY THIS WHAT WE’VE
DONE IN RECENT YEARS IS THAT WE
KEEP EVERY TIME THERE IS ANY
KIND OF TROUBLE WE FLOOD THE
ECONOMY WITH MONEY.
I THINK THERE IS A SENSE OUT
THERE OF A LOT OF AMERICANS THAT
THEY’RE JUST ENTITLED TO ANOTHER
BIG TIDAL WAVE OF MONEY IN THEIR
POCKETS AND IN THEIR BANK
ACCOUNTS FROM THE GOVERNMENT IF
THEY GET IN ANY TROUBLE.
THIS IS A CLASSIC MORAL HAZARD
PROBLEM BECAUSE WE’RE KIND OF
REWARDING THE SAME KIND OF
OVERSPENDING PROBLEM.
WE’VE GOT TO BE INVESTING.
WE HAVE TO BE BUILDING.
WE HAVE TO GET AMERICANS BACK TO
WORK, SEAN.
WE’RE MISSING FOUR MILLION
AMERICANS FROM THE WORKFORCE IN
PART BECAUSE OF ALL OF THESE
GOVERNMENT PAYMENTS THAT WE’RE
JUST SHIPPING OUT TO PEOPLE
WITHOUT, WITHOUT WORKING.
SEAN: NOT JUST THE AMERICAN
CONSUMER DEBT.
YOU RECALL THIS, I WORKED WITH
YOU WHEN I WAS IN CONGRESS, WHEN
PAUL RYAN CAME OUT WITH THE
PATHWAY TO PROSPERITY IN 2010 I
THINK WE WERE AT $18 TRILLION IN
DEBT WHEN WE DID THAT.
WE’LL HAVE THIS DEBT BOMB ON THE
HORIZON UNLESS WE DEALT WITH IT.
THE CONGRESS CONTINUES TO SPEND.
WE’RE 30 PLUS TRILLION DOLLARS
IN DEBT RIGHT NOW.
WHAT IMPACT DOES THAT HAVE ON
THE ECONOMY IN CONJUNCTION WITH
ALL THE CONSUMER DEBT?
>> I’M KIND OF WITH LARRY KUDLOW
ON THIS.
DEBT WITHIN ITSELF IS NOT A
PROBLEM.
IF YOU HAVE DEBT TO GROW A
BUSINESS, IF YOU BORROW FOR
THAT, BUY A HOME, IMPROVE THE
HOME, GOOD BORROWING, KIND OF
INVESTING IN AN ASSET.
THE PROBLEM IF YOU LOOK AT THE
THINGS THAT JOE BIDEN IS
BORROWING MONEY FOR, WINDMILLS,
REALLY?
ARE WE GOING TO BUILD THIS
ECONOMY ON WINDMILLS?
YOU KNOW MORE TRANSFER PAYMENTS
TO PEOPLE, MORE MEDICAID, MORE
UNEMPLOYMENT, INSURANCE
BENEFITS, THOSE THINGS DON’T ADD
ANYTHING TO THE ECONOMY AND YET
THEY, WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY
THAT DEBT BACK.
MY BIG CONCERN, BY THE WAY,
LOOK, YOU’RE AN EXPERT ON THE
SHOW.
LOOK WHAT WE’VE DONE TO THE
MILITARY.
SEAN: THAT’S RIGHT.
>> WE’RE HOLLOWED OUT THE
MILITARY SPENDING MONEY ON THE
DOMESTIC SOCIAL PROGRAMS.
SEAN: ON INFRASTRUCTURE BILL, WE
NEED INFRASTRUCTURE, ROADS,
BRIDGES, AIRPORTS.
>> RIGHT.
SEAN: A VERY SMALL PART GOES TO
ACTUAL INFRASTRUCTURE.
A LOT OF IT GOES TO GREEN NEW
ENERGY PROPOSALS DEMOCRATS ARE
SO HOT ON RIGHT NOW.
I WANT TO SWITCH GEARS WITH YOU,
STEVE, TALK ABOUT THE CHILD TAX
CREDIT.
STEVE HODGE OF THE TAX
FOUNDATION INTRODUCED IT BACK IN
THE ’90s.
HE IS COMING OUT LISTEN THIS MAY
NOT HAVE BEEN THE BEST IDEA.
TAKE A LISTEN.
>> THIS IS KIND OF A CLASSIC
CASE OF GOOD INTENTIONS LEADING
TO UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES.
AS YOU SAY THIS STARTED OUT AS
VERY SMALL CHILD TAX CREDIT,
$500.
IT HAS NOW MORPHED INTO THE IS
120 BILLION-DOLLAR A YEAR INCOME
TRANSFER PROGRAM.
SEAN: STEVE YOUR TAKE, DO YOU
AGREE WITH HODGE?
>> THE CHILD CREDIT WAS SORT OF
A GOOD IDEA AT A LITTLE AMOUNT
BUT WHAT WE’RE DOING RIGHT NOW,
WHEN YOU ADD THE CHILD CREDIT ON
TOP OF UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS,
FOOD STAMPS, WE’RE PAYING PEOPLE
NOT TO WORK.
THIS IS KIND OF THE CANCER CELL
OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY RIGHT
NOW.
WE’VE GOT TO GET, WE’VE GOT TO
ATTACH INCOME TO WORK, NOT
INCOME TO GOVERNMENT AND THAT’S
WHAT WE’VE DONE.
IT HAS HAD REALLY NEGATIVE
EFFECT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE
DECLINE IN THE LABOR FORCE
PARTICIPATION RATE, WE’RE GOING
TO GET A NEW REPORT ON FRIDAY ON
THAT NUMBER BUT I ANTICIPATE
WE’RE GOING TO SEE CONTINUING
DECLINE IN LABOR FORCE
PARTICIPATION BECAUSE THE
GOVERNMENT IS PROVIDING SO MUCH
FREE MONEY TO PEOPLE.
IT IS ALMOST LIKE, I CALL IT
HELICOPTER MONEY.
MONEY WE’RE DROPPING OUT OF
WINDOWS OF HELICOPTERS, THAT
PARADE WON’T CONTINUE FOR A LONG
TIME WITHOUT AN UNHAPPY ENDING,
STEVE, DOESN’T IT CREATE SOCIAL
ILL.
ALMOST HALF OF TAX-FILERS IN
AMERICA DON’T PAY INCOME TAX.
THEY SAY LISTEN, I’M NOT PAYING
FOR ALL THESE SERVICES I WANT
THE GOVERNMENT TO PERFORM.
SO HAVE AT IT STEVE MOORE WILL
PAY OR LARRY KUDLOW IS GOING TO
PAY.
I’M NOT GOING TO PAY BUT IF
WE’RE ALL HAULING THE WAGON,
TOWING THE WAGON, PAYING THE
TAX, PEOPLE MIGHT BE MORE
RESPONSIBLE HOW THE GOVERNMENT
SPENDS THEIR MONEY BUT HALF
DON’T PAY.
>> I’VE ALWAYS BEEN TROUBLED BY
THAT, OVER HALF OF AMERICANS NOW
ARE BASICALLY PAYING NO INCOME
TAX.
YOU KNOW ME, SEAN, FOR A LONG
TIME.
I’M NOT FOR PEOPLE PAYING HIGHER
TAXES.
EVERYBODY SHOULD HAVE SOME SKIN
IN THE GAME, ONLY $100 OF INCOME
TAX, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GETTING
EXTRA REBATES ON THEIR INCOME
TAX BECAUSE OF THE EARNED INCOME
CREDIT.
SO IT IS ALMOST A CASH PAYMENT
PROGRAM, NOT A PROGRAM THAT YOU
PAY MONEY INTO.
I AGREE WITH THAT.
LET’S HAVE BROAD-BASED TAX
SYSTEM, LOW RATES SO THAT
EVERYBODY IS PAYING THEIR FAIR
SHARE BUT YOU ARE INCENTIVIZING
ENTERPRISE AND WORK.
SEAN: JUST QUICKLY --
>> NOT COMPLICATED.
SEAN: IT IS NOT COMPLICATEED.
KIDS ARE EXPENSIVE, I CAN ATTEST
TO THAT, I HAVE NINE OF THEM.
GIVING FAMILY, $500 HOW IT
STARTED, 1000, 200,000.
UP TO 36 YEARS OLD $3600 AS A
TAX CREDIT.
GET PAID THROUGHOUT THE YEAR FOR
HAVING KIDS.
THIS CREATES A DISINCENTIVE TO
WORK.
A PROBLEM A GOOD IDEA THAT HAS
GONE OFFER THE RAILS, FINAL WORD
TO YOU, 30 SECOND.
>> COULDN’T AGREE MORE.
SEAN, YOU HAVE A LOT OF KIDS,
DON’T YOU?
YOU’RE BENEFITING FROM THE
PROGRAM, YOU AND RACHEL.
SEAN: I DON’T THINK I AM.
THEY KICKED ME OUT OF IT, STEVE,
I WOULD BE A LITTLE MORE FINE
WITH IT.
AGAIN, GOOD IDEAS THAT GO OF OUT