>> Jeyan: EARLIER THIS SUMMER THE ONTARIO GOVERNMENT ANNOUNCED A FALL HUNTING SEASON FOR
DOUBLE-CRESTED CORMORANTS STARTING SEPTEMBER 15.
GAIL FRASER IS A PROFESSOR AT YORK UNIVERSITY WHO SPECIALIZES IN COLONIAL WATER BIRDS, AND SHE
JOINS US NOW FROM TORONTO FOR WHAT THAT HUNT COULD MEAN FOR THE CORMORANT'S FUTURE.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> Gail Fraser: GOOD MORNING.
>> Jeyan: SO CORMORANTS SEEM TO BE A VERY DIVISIVE BIRD.
IT SEEMS ANYONE WHO KNOWS ABOUT THEM HAS AN OPINION, BUT FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH
THE CORMORANT, WHAT IS IT?
>> THEY'RE A LARGE BLACK COLONIAL NESTING BIRD.
THEY'RE AN AQUATIC PREDATOR, SO THEY FEED ALMOST ENTIRELY ON FISH, SMALL FISH, RELATIVELY
SMALL FISH.
>> Jeyan: IN TERMS OF WHEN WE SEE THEM OUT AND ABOUT, WHERE CAN WE SEE THEM SAY IN THE GREAT
LAKES?
>> USUALLY THEY ARE WITHIN A COUPLE OF MILES OF THE SHORELINE.
THAT'S PRIMARILY WHERE THEY'RE FORAGING.
AND DURING THE BREEDING SEASON, WHICH IS WHEN THEY'RE IN ONTARIO, THEY ARE ON LAND,
USUALLY ON ISLANDS, AND THEY FORAGE QUITE EXTENSIVELY TO REAR THEIR YOUNG.
SO IT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT TO REAR THEIR YOUNG.
SO YOU SEE THEM PRIMARILY ON LARGER LAKES.
TYPICALLY THEY'RE NOT ON THE SMALLER LAKES WITHIN ONTARIO.
>> Jeyan: SO THIS PROVINCE RECENTLY SAID THAT THIS HUNT WAS THE RESULT OF CONCERNS FROM
PROPERTY OWNERS, COMMERCIAL FISHERS AND ANGLERS, ABOUT THE DAMAGE CORMORANTS HAVE CAUSED TO
THEIR COMMUNITY.
I WANT TO PULL UP A LITTLE GRAPHIC THAT KIND OF OUTLINES WHAT THE PROVINCE HAS PUT OUT
FOR THIS HUNT.
THE HUNT WILL START FROM SEPTEMBER 15TH AND RUN UNTIL DECEMBER 31st.
HUNTERS CAN KILL 15 BIRDS A DAY, AND THEY CAN HUNT FROM A STATIONARY BOAT.
AND THEY MUST RETRIEVE AND DISPOSE OF THE CARCASS.
AND THE PROVINCE ALSO SAYS THAT THEY WILL ESTABLISH A MONITORING PROGRAM TO ASSESS POPULATION
STATUS AND TRENDS.
GAIL, LOOKING AT THIS LIST, WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS WITH THE HUNT?
>> YEAH.
A BIG CONCERN IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HASN'T IDENTIFIED POPULATION TARGETS, AND SO
WITHIN BEST PRACTICES OF WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT, YOU'D USE SCIENCE AND YOU'D IDENTIFY HOW
MANY BIRDS ARE GOING TO BE TAKEN, WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION IS THAT GOING TO BE.
AND SO IT'S A FUNDAMENTAL VIOLATION OF ONE OF THE BEST PRACTICES OR PRINCIPLES OF
WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT.
BUT THERE'S AN UNKNOWN VARIABLE OF HOW MANY BIRDS ARE GOING TO BE TAKEN, WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO
BE TAKEN, AND SO IN MY MIND, IT'S A PROBLEM.
EVEN THOUGH THEY SAY THEY'RE GOING TO MONITOR POPULATION TRENDS, IT'S GOING TO BE AFTER
THE HUNT AND IT'LL BE PRIMARILY BREEDING BIRDS.
>> Jeyan: NOW, I UNDERSTAND ABOUT 51 ECOLOGY AND FISHERY SCIENTISTS, INCLUDING YOURSELF,
RECENTLY PENNED A LETTER TO THE PROVINCE ASKING THEM TO RE-EXAMINE THE HUNT.
WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU GUYS ASKING FOR?
>> YEAH.
SO MYSELF AND COLLEAGUES, INCLUDING SOME OF THE WORLD-RENOWNED EXPERTS ON
DOUBLE-CRESTED CORMORANTS SIGNED THIS LETTER ASKING FOR THE HUNT TO BE STOPPED AND FOR THE
GOVERNMENT OF ONTARIO TO TAKE ON A SCIENCE-BASED MANAGEMENT APPROACH OF DEALING WITH
HUMAN-WILDLIFE CONFLICT WITH CORMORANTS IN ONTARIO.
AND A BIG PART OF THIS IS THAT THIS BIRD IS MIGRATORY.
SO IT'S GOING TO THE U.S.
AND THE U.S. IS ALSO UNDERTAKING, OR ALMOST CERTAINLY WILL BE UNDERTAKING, MORE
POPULATION CONTROLS.
AND SO HERE WE HAVE A HUNT GOING FORWARD WHERE THERE'S SOME UNKNOWN NUMBER OF BIRDS THAT ARE
GOING TO BE KILLED.
THE U.S. IS ALSO GOING TO BE KILLING BIRDS.
AND IT'LL BE VERY HARD TO COORDINATE A SUSTAINABLE POPULATION FOR THIS SPECIES.
AND SO WE WANT SCIENCE-BASED APPROACHES.
AND THERE'S BEEN A TON OF SCIENCE-BASED WORK ON THIS SPECIES.
IN FACT, THE U.S. HAS UNDERTAKEN ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS THAT ARE QUITE SUBSTANTIVE, AND THEY
HAVE REJECTED HUNTING AS AN OPTION TO CONTROL THE SPECIES.
>> Jeyan: I'M CURIOUS, YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING CORMORANTS FOR WELL OVER A DECADE.
YOU HAVE KIND OF SEEN THEIR POPULATIONS CLIMBING.
DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY CORMORANTS RIGHT NOW AND THERE NEEDS TO BE
SOME SORT OF MANAGEMENT, OR WHERE DO WE STAND ON THAT?
>> WELL, I DON'T, BUT I DO HAVE CONCERNS THAT THERE ARE CONFLICTS.
SO THERE ARE PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT PERCEIVE THE SPECIES AS BEING A PROBLEM, AND THEREFORE,
THE MINISTRY NEEDS TO ADDRESS THOSE CONFLICTS.
IN THE PAST, IN 2006, THE MNR HAD A REPORT AND THEY SAID LET'S JUST MONITOR THE POPULATION.
THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A PROBLEM.
IT TAKES A LOT OF WORK TO DETERMINE WHETHER A PREDATOR POPULATION, IN THIS CASE AQUATIC
PREDATOR, HAS A PARTICULAR IMPACT ON A FISHERY.
SO I HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT GOING FORWARD IN THE GUISE OF PROTECTING FISHERIES OR FISH
POPULATIONS.
THEY'RE HUGELY COMPLEX SYSTEMS.
>> Jeyan: I WANT TO BRING IN THE OPPOSING VIEW.
SO ON ONE HAND YOU SAY THIS HUNT COULD DECIMATE THE CORMORANT POPULATION.
AND ON THE OTHER, THE ONTARIO FEDERATION OF ANGLERS AND HUNTERS SAYS IT'S JUST A START.
I WANT TO PULL UP A BOARD FROM LORNE TENELLI WITH THE FEDERATION OF FISHERS AND
HUNTERS.
SHE SAYS:
>> Jeyan: WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY TO THAT?
>> WELL, IF I FOCUSED ON THE VERY LAST SENTENCE "LOCAL CONCERNS," VERY MUCH IN ORDER TO
CONSIDER IF THERE ARE ECOLOGICAL DAMAGE BY CORMORANT PREDATION, IT HAS TO BE A LOCALIZED
MANAGEMENT ACTION.
SO YOU CAN'T HAVE A PROVINCE-WIDE HUNT AND THINK THAT A PARTICULAR FISHERY OR
FISH POPULATION IS GOING TO BENEFIT FROM REMOVABLE OF SOME UNKNOWN NUMBER OF BIRDS.
AND SO, AS I'VE ALREADY SAID, WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY CORMORANTS ARE GOING TO BE KILLED AND IT
COULD BE THAT A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER WILL BE.
AND ALL OF THE INTERACTIONS AND STUDIES AND WHAT THE SCIENCE SAYS IS YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS
ON A LOCALIZED SCALE.
IF YOU WANT TO SAY THAT CORMORANTS HAVE AN EFFECT ON A FISHERY, IT HAS TO BE WITHIN A
CERTAIN SPATIAL SCALE AND TIME FRAME, AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE DATA, REALLY GOOD DATA, ON THE
FISH POPULATIONS AS WELL AS THE CORMORANT POPULATION.
>> Jeyan: LAST YEAR, WE HAD CHATTED WITH ANGLERS AND PROPERTY OWNERS AND SCIENTISTS
ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT THIS HUNT COULD BE WHEN IT WAS SORT OF IN THE PUBLIC CONSULTATION PROCESS.
AND I'M JUST CURIOUS, WHAT ARE THE OTHER METHODS THAT, YOU KNOW, WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT
OFFICERS HAVE USED IN THE PAST?
YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SUGGESTED, WHY DO THE HUNT WHEN WE CAN OIL EGGS?
YOU HAVE EXPLAINED IT'S NOT THE MOST IDEAL METHOD.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT A LITTLE BIT?
>> THE THING WITH CORMORANTS IS THERE ARE MANY CONFLICTS.
THERE'S A CONFLICT OVER HABITAT, PERCEIVED CONFLICT OVER FISHERIES, POSSIBLY CONFLICTS
AGAINST OTHER WATER BIRDS.
SO EACH ONE OF THOSE CONFLICTS COMES WITH DIFFERENT KINDS OF MANAGEMENT TOOLS.
AND I THINK THAT FROM THE FISHERY, YOU CAN REDUCE LOCAL POPULATIONS IF YOU HAVE
COMPELLING DATA.
YOU KNOW, IT DOES TAKE SOME EFFORT TO GET COMPELLING DATA.
AND THERE HAS BEEN SOME WORK DONE WHERE IT'S SHOWN IT.
BUT LINDA WIRES, WHO HAS WRITTEN SUBSTANTIALLY ON DOUBLE-CRESTED CORMORANTS AND SIGNED OUR LETTER
AND REVIEWED THE STUDIES UP TO 2014 AND SAID THERE HAS BEEN REALLY NO EVIDENCE THAT
CORMORANTS HAVE HAD AN IMPACT ON NATURAL SYSTEMS.
AND YOU NEED TO IDENTIFY WHAT THE IMPACT IS.
IS IT THE IMPACT ON THE FISHERY?
IS IT THE IMPACT ON THE ECONOMICS OF THE FISHERY?
IS IT THE IMPACT ON FISH POPULATIONS?
SO YOU CAN SEE IT GETS COMPLEX.
AND CORMORANTS ARE JUST ONE PREDATOR IN THIS SYSTEM.
>> Jeyan: I'M VERY CURIOUS AND I'M SURE A LOT OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW THIS ABOUT
CORMORANTS, BUT CORMORANTS ARE A CONSERVATION SUCCESS STORY.
TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT AND KIND OF THAT JOURNEY FROM THE '60s TO WHERE WE ARE NOW.
>> YEAH, SO LIKE MANY SPECIES OF BIRDS AT THE TURN OF THE LAST CENTURY, THEY WERE DECIMATED,
AND THEN THE POPULATION STARTED TO REGROW ONCE THE MIGRATORY BIRD CONVENTION ACT WAS
INITIATED.
AND THEN THE POPULATION CRASHED AGAIN WITH POLLUTANTS, DDT AND PCB THAT WERE PUT OUT, AND THEN
WE DEALT WITH THOSE POLLUTANTS.
AND, AGAIN, THIS IS A MIGRATORY BIRD.
IT'S GOING TO THE U.S.
AND THE U.S. PUT CORMORANTS ON THEIR MIGRATORY BIRD TREATY ACT AND THAT ALSO HELPED THE
POPULATION GROW.
ONCE THEY GOT RID OF THE POLLUTANTS, WE PROTECTED THE SPECIES, AND THEY ARE USING
INVASIVE SPECIES TO PRIMARILY EXIST IN THE GREAT LAKES.
AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THAT PREDATION ON INVASIVE SPECIES MEANS THEY'RE NOT EATING
SPORT FISHERY SPECIES OF FISH.
>> Jeyan: IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S A WHOLE GENERATION OF PEOPLE WHO NEVER GREW UP WITH
CORMORANTS BEFORE.
DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT HAVE SOME PLAY IN THIS?
>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
SO THERE'S A TIME WHERE YOU COULD BE ON THE GREAT LAKES IN THE EARLY '80s, YOU WOULD HAVE
NEVER SEEN A CORMORANT.
YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY HARD-PRESSED TO SEE A CORMORANT.
AND I THINK BECAUSE THE POPULATION HAS REBOUND, PEOPLE THINK THAT THEY'RE INVASIVE,
THAT THEY DON'T BELONG ON THE GREAT LAKES, AND THEY ARE VERY MUCH A NATIVE BIRD TO THESE
SYSTEMS.
>> Jeyan: GAIL, I WANT TO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THE SHOW TONIGHT.
THAT'S GAIL FRASER FROM YORK UNIVERSITY.
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> THANKS A LOT.