A SPOKESPERSON FOR CHINA'S FOREIGN MINISTRY DEFLECTING
REPORTERS QUESTIONS ON PROTEST
AND LOOKING TO SEE IF CHINA IS LOOKING TO END THE STRICT COVID
POLICIES. >> IVAN WATSON IS IN HONG KONG,
HONG KONG HAS ITS OWN HISTORY OF PROTESTS AND ALSO OF CRACKDOWNS.
YOU'VE SEEN SOME PROTESTS THERE. PEOPLE DEFYING THE POLICE AS
WELL IN SOLIDARITY. HOW EXTENSIVE?
>> WELL TWO KIND OF SMALL DEMONSTRATIONS OF PEOPLE NOT
MORE THAN A HUNDRED DEMONSTRATE YE
ORS AT THE ONE I VISITED A FEW HOURS AGO BUT ALL THE MORE RARE
BECAUSE HONG KONG HAS BANNED TERRITORYING AND CRACKDOWN ON
INDEPENDENT MEDIA AND OPPOSITION POLITICAL PARTIES AND THROWN
ACTIVIST NEWS PRISON. AND IT GOES TO SHOW HOW THE VERY
UNUSUAL NATIONWIDE PROTESTS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN CHINA HAVE THIS
POWER TO KIND OF INSPIRE PEOPLE HERE IN THE FORMER BRITISH
COLONY AS WELL. I THINK THIS IS PROBABLY THE
BIGGEST NATIONWIDE MANIFESTATION OF PUBLIC DISCONTENT THAT WE'VE
SEEN IN CHINA IN A GENERATION. I SPOKE TO ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO
WAS OUT IN HONG KONG, A MAN WHO ONLY WANTED TO GIVE HIS FIRST
NAME WHO IS FROM SHANGHAI, AND HE DESCRIBED HIMSELF AS A VICTIM
OF CHINA'S ZERO COVID POLICY. TAKE A LISTEN.
>> I AM A VICTIM. I CANNOT GO HOME.
FOR MANY YEARS. LIKE TWO TO THREE YEARS, RIGHT.
MY PARENTS WERE LOCKED DOWN FOR TH
THREE MONTHS. AND EVEN RELATIVES OF MY GOOD
FRIENDS, THEY HAD SUICIDE BECAUSE OF THE LOCKDOWNS.
RIGHT. AND I KNOW PEOPLE DIE BECAUSE OF
IT. BECAUSE OF THE SIDE EFFECTS OF
THIS POLICY, RIGHT. I THINK EVERYONE WHO HAS A SANE
MINDP SHOULD SAY SOMETHING OR DO SOMETHING TO STOP THIS
UNREASONABLE SOCIAL MEASURE. >> Reporter: NOW, WE HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO CONFIRM 16 SEPARATE PROTESTS IN MAINLAND CHINA
ACROSS 11 DIFFERENT CITIES. AND OF COURSE WE HAVE REPORTS OF
ADDITIONAL PROTESTS BUT IT IS SO HARD TO MAKE SENSE OF THAT AND
CONFIRM IT AND VERIFY IT GIVEN THE INTENSE CENSORSHIP ON THE
MAIN LAND. >> JUST INCREDIBLE TO SEE THESE
PROTESTS IN SEVERAL CITIES. >>> JOINING ME NOW IS BRONNY
LYNN, WORKED AT PENTAGON ON TAIWAN AND CHINA ISSUES.
GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON THIS MORNING.
>> THANK YOU, JIM, THANK YOU, BIANNA.
>> SO LET'S BEGIN, THESE ARE UNUSUAL AND COURAGEOUS BECAUSE
OF THE PRICE THAT PEOPLE PAY FOR DISSENT IN CHINA.
AND THEY'RE NATIONAL, LEAST IN MANY LARGE CITIES, DO THEY POSE
A GENUINE THREAT TO THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT?
>> I THINK RIGHT NOW IT IS A BIT EARLY TO SAY THAT BECAUSE WE'RE
ON DAY TWO AND A HALF OR THREE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE LARGE SCALE
PROTESTS THAT HAS HAD A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON I THINK
TIANANMEN IN 1989 IS THE BEST EXAMPLE, IT STARTED IN APRIL AND
WE DIDN'T SEE THE CULMINATION OF THE EFFECT UNTIL JUNE.
SO WE STILL HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF TIME TO SEE HOW MUCH THIS WILL
SPREAD AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS AT LEAST 16
DIFFERENT LOCATIONS. BUT WE STILL DON'T HAVE A SENSE
OF HOW LARGE THIS IS. IT SEEMS LIKE EACH LOCATION IS A
COUPLE HUNDRED PEOPLE PER LOCATION.
AND IF IT IS SPREAD OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IT IS ACTUALLY NOT
TOO DIFFICULT FOR CHINA TO CLAMP DOWN, IF IT IS ONLY A COUPLE
HUNDRED PER LOCATION. BUT IF WE SEE TENS OF THOUSANDS
IN ONE LOCATION, I THINK PARTICULARLY AS IT GET CENTERED
AROUND BEIJING, THAT IS MUCH MORE OF A CHALLENGE FOR THE
CHINESE GOVERNMENT TO DEAL WITH. >> BUT THE FACT THERE ARE
ALREADY 16 PROTESTS TELLS YOU THAT CHINA'S VERY POWERFUL
CENSORSHIP MACHINE HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO ACT QUICKLY ENOUGH TO
TAKE DOWN SOME OF THE VIDEOS AND POSTS DENOUNCING ZERO COVID
POLICY, DENOUNCING XI JINPING HIMSELF.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THEIR LIMITATIONS BECAUSE THIS
IS THE FIRST TIME WE'VE SEEN THEM CHALLENGED TO THIS EXTENT
UNDER XI JINPING? >> THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.
I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO SEE TO WHAT EXTENT THE MEASURES THE
CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN INCLUDING MORE POLICING, MORE
ARRESTS, MORE CENSORSHIP, TO WHAT EXTENT THIS WILL CURB THE
PROTESTS MOVING FORWARD. SO WHAT WE DON'T KNOW IS, FOR
EXAMPLE, TONIGHT, MONDAY NIGHT OR TOMORROW, IF THIS WILL
CONTINUE TO ESCALATOR IF CHINA WILL HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SORT OF
TONE THIS DOWN A LITTLE BIT. BUT I WOULD SAY EVEN IF WE SEE
MORE PROTESTS GROWING THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS, WE DON'T SEE THE
SAME POLITICAL CONDITIONS THAT WE SAW THERE 1989 WHICH WAS A
VERY DIVIDED CHINESE LEADERSHIP IN WHICH ONE LEADER COULD TAKE
THE FALL FOR THIS. RIGHT NOW WE SAW XI JINPING
CONSOLIDATE POWER IN THE 2022 CONGRESS.
I DON'T SEE ANY MAJOR CHALLENGERS TO HIM RIGHT NOW.
SO IT COULD BE POSSIBLE ONE OF HIS DEPUTIES TAKE THE FALL BUT I
DON'T SEE XI JINPING TAKING THE FALL.
>> HE'S ELIMINATED CHALLENGERS. AND LET'S TALK ABOUT CHINA'S
ZERO COVID POLICY WHICH SPARKED WHAT IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW.
CL CHINA TRIED TO RELAX THEM BUT
THEN FORCED TO TIGHTEN RESTRICTIONS AGAIN BECAUSE CASES
WENT UP. THE FACT IS, IT IS COVID POLICY
IS FAILING. REALLY THEY DON'T HAVE THE
MEDICAL RESOURCES TO HANDLE IT IF MORE AND MORE PEOPLE GET
SICK. WHAT CAN XI JINPING AND THE
CHINESE GOVERNMENT DO REALISTICALLY TO TOOK THE COVID
POLICY TO GIVE SOME GROUND TO THESE PEOPLE OR CAN'T IT?
>> SO CHINA IS NOW AT RECORD NUMBER OF COVID CASES.
A LITTLE BIT UNDER 40,000. AND JUST TO PUT THIS IN CONTACT,
THAT IS AROUND THE SAME NUMBER THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS.
BUT THIS IS THE OFFICIAL CHINESE REPORT.
WE DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS THE ACTUAL NUMBER.
IT COULD BE MUCH LARGER. MAIN ISSUE AS YOU MENTIONED IS
THE VACCINES. RIGHT.
WE KNOW THAT ABOUT 90% OF CHINA'S POPULATION IS VACCINATED
BUT ONLY 60% OF ITS ELDERS ARE ACTUALLY BOOSTED.
AND WE ALSO KNOW THAT CHINA'S VACCINES DON'T WORK QUITE AS
WELL AS OUR MRNA VACCINES. SO AS CHINA LOOKED FORWARD, THE
MAIN ISSUE IS CAN IT AFFORD TO OPEN UP AT THE RISK OF LARGE
NUMBERS OF ITS POPULATION POTENTIALLY CONTRACTING THE
VIRUS AND THEN DEPENDING ON THEIR VACCINATION OR IF THEY'RE
NOT VACCINATED, THEY COULD BE AT RISK OF DYING OR SEVERE
COMPLICATIONS. >> AND CHINA HAS NOT IMPORTED
THE BETTER MRNA VACCINES. BONNIE LYNN, GREAT TO HAVE YOU
ON. THANK YOU SO MUCH.
I WANT TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS, THESE LOCKDOWNS AND THE COVID
POLICY. DR. AMESH ADALJA IS A SENIOR
SCHOLAR FROM THE JOHN HOPKINS CENTER FOR HEALTH SECURITY,
JOINING ME LIVE. DOCTOR, WE ARE SEEING CASES
RISE, BUT THE REALITY THERE IS THAT THESE LOCKDOWN MEASURES
HAVE LED TO IMMENSE HUMAN SUFFERING ACROSS CHINA.
AND AS I SAY, RISE, IRONICALLY IN CASES WHERE PERHAPS, NOT
IRONICALLY. BUT WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THIS
ZERO COVID STRATEGY? AND DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO YOU?
>> ZERO COVID HAS NEVER MADE SENSE TO ME.
WHEN YOU TRY TO IMPLEMENT IT, IT IS A COMPLETE FAILURE.
THIS STEMS FROM THE FACT THAT THIS IS A VIRUS THAT CANNOT BE
ERADICATED, ELIMINATED. IT TRANSMITS EFFICIENTLY, AND
WAS ALWAYS DESTINED TO BECOME AN ENDEMIC.
YOUR GOAL WITH COVID-19 IS ALWAYS BEEN TWO SEPARATE CASES
FROM HOSPITALIZATIONS AND DEATHS, TO REMOVE THE ABILITY
OF THE VIRUS, TO CRUSH HOSPITALS, NOT TO ERADICATE OR
ELIMINATED, THAT IS A FANTASY. UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE IN CHINA
HAD TO SUFFER FOR SO LONG BECAUSE OF THE CHINESE
GOVERNMENTS APPEARING TO KIND OF FANTASTICAL THINKING THAT IS
NOT BASED IN REALITY. >> FOR THOSE I MEAN, ZERO COVID
POLICY HAS MEANT VERY FEW PEOPLE, THE NUMBERS ARE TICKING
UP, HAVE ACTUALLY HAD COVID. WHICH MEANS, I GUESS, CORRECT
ME IF I AM WRONG, IT IS MUCH, MUCH MORE LIKELY AS THEY COME
OUT OF COVID, THAT CASES WILL TAKE UP THERE IS NO IMMUNITY,
CORRECT? >> THERE'S NO IMMUNITY FROM
INFECTION BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN INFECTED.
THEY DO HAVE A FAIRLY HIGH VACCINATION RATE IN THE GENERAL
POPULATION. BUT WE KNOW THOSE VACCINES ARE
PROBABLY NOT AS EFFECTIVE AS THE WESTERN VACCINES.
SO THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THIS IMMUNITY GAP,
WHICH WILL INCREASE CASES. I THINK IT IS MORE IMPORTANT
FOR CHINA TO FOCUS ON PROTECTING THOSE AT RISK FOR
HOSPITALIZATION BY PUTTING EFFECTIVE VACCINES INTO THEM,
GETTING DRUGS LIKE PAXLOVID AVAILABLE, MAKING SURE THEY
HAVE THE CAPACITY, RATHER THAN THIS UNSUSTAINABLE APPROACH
THAT CAN NEVER AND BASED ON WHAT THIS VIRUS IS.
IF THEY STICK TO THIS, THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT.
IT WILL LEAD TO UNTOLD SUFFERING, BOTH OF PEOPLES
LIVES, AND ECONOMICALLY FOR THEIR COUNTRY.
>> SO IF THE LOCKDOWN WERE TO BE DROPPED, WHAT WOULD THAT
LOOK LIKE IN CHINA, GIVEN CURRENT CASES AND VACCINE RATES,
TO YOUR MIND? >> WHAT WE WOULD SEE IS A SURGE
IN CASES. THAT IS NOT GOING TO BE
ANYTHING SURPRISING. THE VIRUS IS THERE, IT WILL
SPREAD. THE QUESTION IS HOW MANY
HIGH-RISK PEOPLE WILL BE INFECTED?
WE KNOW THAT CHINA THINGS BACKWARDS, THEY DID NOT MAKE
THE VACCINE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE ABOVE 60 EARLY ON.
WE KNOW THAT IS STILL TRICKLING DOWN.
THERE'S NOT THAT MANY HIGH RISK PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED.
SO I DO THINK THAT WE WOULD SEE A SURGE IN HOSPITALIZATIONS AND
DEATHS AMONG THE HIGH-RISK, WHETHER WE CAN HANDLE THAT
CAPACITY, THAT IS A QUESTION THAT ONLY THEY COULD ANSWER
BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO BUILD HOSPITALS VERY QUICKLY.
THE POINT IS, THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THIS AT SOME POINT.
THEY HAVE HAD TWO AND A HALF YEARS TO USE MRNA VACCINES IN
THE POPULATION, BUT THEY HAVE REFUSED THEM.
SO TO ME IT IS NOT A SITUATION, OF THEIR COMPLETE DOING.
IT REALLY REFLECTS UTTER INCOMPETENCE FROM THE CHINESE
GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW THIS TO FESTER ON, FOR TWO AND A HALF
YEARS WITH THIS MATTER, WITH THIS MAGICAL THINKING.
>> FASCINATING, ISN'T IT? THANK YOU, DR..