>> Steve: THE GOAL SET IN 2005 WHEN THE ACCESSIBILITY FOR ONTARIANS WITH DISABILITIES ACT
CAME INTO EFFECT WAS THAT BY 2025, THIS PROVINCE WOULD BE FULLY ACCESSIBLE.
THAT DATE LIKELY FALLS IN THE RANGE OF THE NEXT GOVERNMENT'S TERM IN OFFICE.
IS THIS ELECTION DEALING WITH THAT?
THE PERSON TO ASK IS: DAVID LEPOFSKY, CHAIR OF THE ACCESSIBILITY FOR ONTARIANS WITH
DISABILITIES ACT ALLIANCE, AND HE JOINS US NOW FROM THE PROVINCIAL CAPITAL.
DAVID, IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON OUR PROGRAM.
I WONDER, YOU KNOW, IT'S A TEMPTATION TO SAY THAT THIS ELECTION IS ALWAYS THE MOST
IMPORTANT IN HISTORY, AND SOMETIMES IT'S TRUE BUT SOMETIMES IT'S NOT.
SO I WANT TO GET A SENSE FROM YOU OFF THE TOP.
IN TERMS OF THE ISSUES AFFECTING PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AND THE DEADLINE THAT LOOMS THREE YEARS
DOWN THE ROAD, HOW IMPORTANT IS THIS ELECTION?
>> David: FOR OVER 2.6 MILLION PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES AND FOR ALL THE REST OF YOUR VIEWERS WHO
ARE BOUND TO GET A DISABILITY AT SOME POINT IN THEIR LIFE, THIS IS IN FACT THE MOST IMPORTANT
ELECTION IN TWO DECADES.
THE REASON IS THIS: BACK IN 2005, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE ACCESSIBILITY FOR ONTARIANS WITH
DISABILITIES ACT WAS UNANIMOUSLY PASSED -- IN FACT, THAT WAS 17 YEARS AGO YESTERDAY.
AND IT WAS A VERY EXCITING DAY, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE OF US WHO FOUGHT FOR A DECADE TO GET THAT
LAW PASSED.
IT REQUIRED OUR GOVERNMENT TO LEAD THE PROVINCE TO BECOME FULLY ACCESSIBLE BY 2025.
EVERY ELECTION SINCE THEN, WE'VE BEEN MAKING REQUESTS TO SPEED THINGS UP, MAKE SOME
ADJUSTMENTS, KEEP US ON TRACK AND SO ON.
BUT NOW WE ARE AT THE, FRANKLY, DEEPLY UPSETTING POINT WHERE IT IS NOW CLEAR BEYOND ANY DOUBT
THAT WE WILL NOT REACH THAT GOAL IN 2025.
AND SO WE NEED THE NEXT PARTY, WHOEVER FORMS THE GOVERNMENT, TO MAKE STRONG COMMITMENTS FOR PLAN
B.
WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO BECAUSE WE FAILED TO MEET THIS GOAL?
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET US AS CLOSE TO THAT GOAL BY 2025 AS POSSIBLE?
AND HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET US THE REST OF THE WAY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER 2025?
>> Steve: LIBERALS AND TORIES HAVE BOTH BEEN IN POWER FROM THE TIME THAT THIS BILL WAS PASSED
TO TODAY.
IS THERE ONE YOU HOLD MORE IN CONTEMPT THAN THE OTHER FOR THE FACT THAT WE ARE WHERE WE ARE?
>> David: WELL, WE'RE NON-PARTISAN, SO WE JUST TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT EVERYBODY HAS DONE.
I THINK THE LIBERALS GET CREDIT BACK IN 2003 FOR COMMITTING US TO THIS LEGISLATION AND FOR
DOING A GOOD JOB OF DEVELOPING IT AND PASSING IT AND GETTING UNANIMOUS CONSENT FOR IT.
HOWEVER -- AT THE START, THEIR IMPLEMENTATION WAS GOOD.
BUT GRADUALLY IT STARTED GRINDING SLOWER AND SLOWER AND SLOWER.
BUT IN CONTRAST, SINCE 2018, THE FORD GOVERNMENT BEARS SIGNIFICANT RESPONSIBILITY
BECAUSE THEY KEPT SAYING, "WE'RE GOING TO DO BETTER THAN THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT ON SO MANY
ISSUES."
ON THIS ONE, IT WAS HARD TO DO, BUT THEY DID MUCH WORSE.
>> Steve: AND JUST SO WE'RE ALL CLEAR, WHEN YOU SAY THAT THE BILL COMMITS ONTARIO TO BEING,
QUOTE, UNQUOTE, ACCESSIBLE TO ALL BY 2025, GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT THAT MEANS.
>> David: WELL, WHEN WE SAY ACCESSIBILITY, YOU THINK OF BUILDINGS AND OF COURSE THAT'S
AN IMPORTANT THING AND THAT'S WHY WE WERE GIVEN THIS.
BUT IT ALSO MEANS A THIRD OF A MILLION STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES CAN FULLY
PARTICIPATE IN OUR SCHOOLS AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS MORE CAN FULLY PARTICIPATE IN OUR
POSTSECONDARY EDUCATION SYSTEM.
IT MEANS THAT PATIENTS WITH DISABILITIES WHO DISPROPORTIONATELY ARE THE USERS
OF OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM CAN GET FULL AND EQUAL ACCESS TO OUR HEALTH CARE SERVICES.
IT MEANS THAT THOSE OF US WHO HAVE A DISABILITY -- I HAPPEN TO BE BLIND -- THAT WE CAN MAKE
FULL AND EQUAL USE OF OUR PUBLIC TRANSIT SERVICES, AND IT MEANS THAT FOR PEOPLE WITH
DISABILITIES WHO HAVE ALWAYS FACED EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT RATES, THE PURSUIT
OF COMPETITIVE EMPLOYMENT BASED ON YOUR INDIVIDUAL ABILITY WOULD BE A REALITY FOR THEM, AS MUCH
AS IT IS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE.
>> Steve: YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING, DAVID, THAT FOUR INITIALS HAVE BEEN MENTIONED
QUITE FREQUENTLY DURING THE COURSE OF THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN, AND THOSE INITIALS
ARE: O-D-S-P, THE ONTARIO DISABILITY SUPPORT PROGRAM, WHICH ALL FOUR PARTIES HAVE HAD
A LOT TO SAY ABOUT.
ARE YOU PREPARED AT THIS STAGE TO WEIGH IN AND SAY WHICH PARTY YOU THINK HAS THE BEST
DISABILITY SUPPORT PROGRAM PLANS IN THEIR AGENDA?
>> David: WELL, WE DON'T -- WE DON'T ADVOCATE FOR OR AGAINST ANY PARTY.
IT IS VERY SIGNIFICANT THAT FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES OR THAT PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
DISPROPORTIONATELY LIVE AT OR BELOW THE POVERTY LINE, AND THEREFORE DISABILITY-TARGETED
SOCIAL ASSISTANCE IS VERY IMPORTANT, BOTH TO BE ABLE TO LIVE INDEPENDENTLY AND TO BE
ABLE TO OVERCOME POVERTY.
OUR ODSP RATES HAVE BEEN FORCING THESE FOLKS TO LANGUISH BELOW POVERTY FOR FAR TOO LONG, AND
OVER THE PAST -- SINCE THE FALL OF 2018, THOSE RATES HAVE NOT BEEN INCREASED.
A SINGLE PERSON LIVING ALONE WITH A DISABILITY WHO IS ON ODSP HAS TO LIVE ON ABOUT -- I THINK
IT'S $1169.
AND THAT COVERS FOOD, SHELTER, EVERYTHING.
SO THE PARTIES -- THE THREE OPPOSITION PARTIES COMMITTED TO RAISE THOSE RATES, AND IT WAS
ONLY I GUESS YESTERDAY OR THE DAY BEFORE THAT THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY GOT RELIGION AND HAS
ITSELF COMMITTED TO RAISE THEM.
NOT AS HIGH AS THE OPPOSITION PARTIES, BUT IT HAS FOR THE FIRST TIME.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL US, STEVE?
IT TELLS US THAT ELECTIONS ARE THE CHANCE FOR US TO GET TO POLITICIANS WHO HAVE BEEN
RECALCITRANT ON AN ISSUE.
WHO HAD THE CHANCE TO MAKE THINGS BETTER AND DIDN'T.
AND TO PRESS THEM TO DO SO AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE DOING DURING THIS ELECTION ON THE
ISSUE OF ACCESSIBILITY FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES.
>> Steve: YOU POINT OUT THE PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE PARTY DID OFFER TO RAISE THE RATES BY
5% A YEAR, WHICH IN A 6 OR 7 OR 8 PERCENT INFLATION WORLD IS STILL FALLING BEHIND.
AND I THINK THE GREENS ARE ON RECORD AS HAVING SAID THAT THEY WOULD DOUBLE THE RATES IF THEY
WERE IN A POSITION OF INFLUENCE.
SO WE'VE GOT QUITE A GAP THERE OF PROMISES ON THE RECORD.
WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD BE A REASONABLE AMOUNT TO RAISE THE DISABILITY SUPPORT PAYMENT RATE
TO?
>> David: I THINK THE FIRST THING WE DO IS LOOK AT THE POVERTY LINE AND SAY PEOPLE WHO
HAVE TO RELY ON ODSP SHOULD NOT HAVE TO LIVE BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.
THAT'S THE STARTING POINT.
AND THEN WE WORK UP FROM THERE.
BUT THIS IS -- WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THIS IS THAT WE HAVE EXCELLENT COMMUNITY
ADVOCATES PUSHING THE -- ADVOCATING UNDER THE ODSP AND POVERTY ISSUE.
THIS IS A BIG SUCCESS FOR THEM.
BUT IT ONLY CAME IN THE ELECTION CAMPAIGN ITSELF.
I AM VERY ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN CAMPAIGNING ON MAKING ONTARIO ACCESSIBLE FOR PEOPLE WITH
DISABILITIES.
NOW, THEY'RE NOT SILOS.
ACCESSIBILITY WITHOUT A LIVABLE INCOME IS NOT GOING TO GET YOU VERY FAR, AND A LIVABLE INCOME
BUT WHERE YOU CAN'T GO ANYWHERE OR BENEFIT FROM MUCH IS SIMILARLY NOT SUFFICIENT.
WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT IN THIS ELECTION IS THAT, ON THE ISSUE ON WHICH I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IS,
LAST NOVEMBER WE CAME TO THE DEEPLY UPSETTING CONCLUSION THAT ONTARIO IS SO FAR BEHIND ON
ACCESSIBILITY THAT IT WILL BE IMPOSSIBLE TO MEET THE GOAL OF FULL ACCESSIBILITY BY 2025.
SO WE WROTE ALL THE POLITICAL PARTY LEADERS AND MAPPED OUT AN AGENDA, A SERIES OF REQUESTS,
THAT WE NEED COMMITMENTS ON TO GET US AS CLOSE TO THAT GOAL AS POSSIBLE AND THEN TO GET US THE
REST OF THE WAY AFTER 2025.
ALL THREE OF THE OPPOSITION PARTIES -- THE LIBERALS, THE NDP, AND THE GREENS -- HAVE
ANSWERED.
DOUG FORD HAS REFUSED TO ANSWER.
HE HAS REFUSED TO EVEN RESPOND.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE CONSERVATIVE PARTY IN ALMOST TWO DECADES DURING AN ELECTION HAS
REFUSED TO EVEN RESPOND TO A REQUEST FOR COMMITMENTS ON THIS ISSUE.
AND WE THINK THAT PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES, OVER A MILLION VOTERS WITH DISABILITIES,
DESERVE BETTER.
>> Steve: WELL, DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY.
THE PC PARTY HAS A MATTER OF FAITH IS JUST NOT RESPONDING TO ANY OF THOSE KINDS OF SURVEYS OR
OUTREACHES.
WE'VE HAD OTHER GROUPS SAY THE SAME THING ON THIS PROGRAM.
I WANT TO DO ONE OTHER THING ON THE ODSP AND THAT'S PERSPECTIVE.
EVEN 20 YEARS AFTER HE LEFT OFFICE, MIKE HARRIS IS STILL A NAME THAT WILL CAUSE A LOT OF
PEOPLE TO START AN ARGUMENT ALL THESE YEARS LATER, AND MIKE MOFFATT, THE ECONOMIST WHO IS AN
OCCASIONAL GUEST ON THIS PROGRAM HAS POINTED OUT THAT EVEN WITH THE COMMITMENTS THE PROGRESSIVE
CONSERVATIVES, LIBERAL, AND NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTIES ARE MAKING IN THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WHERE
YOU END UP AFTER THEIR INCREASES KICK IN, ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION, THE ODSP RATES ARE STILL BELOW
WHAT MIKE HARRIS WAS OFFERING PEOPLE ON DISABILITY SUPPORT MORE THAN 20 YEARS AGO.
ONLY THE GREENS ARE OFFERING SOMETHING THAT WOULD BETTER THAT.
IN TERMS OF PERSPECTIVE, HOW IMPORTANT DO YOU THINK IT IS THAT WE KNOW THAT?
>> David: I THINK IT'S REALLY HELPFUL TO KNOW THAT.
I THINK IT'S ALSO HELPFUL IN THAT CONTEXT TO KNOW THAT WHEN MIKE HARRIS WAS CAMPAIGNING TO
CUT WELFARE, HE SAID EXCEPT FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES.
EVEN HE, WHOSE AGENDA ON SOCIAL ASSISTANCE WAS, SHALL WE SAY, CONTROVERSIAL, WAS PREPARED TO
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE SHOULDN'T MAKE THINGS WORSE FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES.
AND I HAVE HAD MEMBERS OF HIS GOVERNMENT TALK TO ME AFTER THEY LEFT POWER BECAUSE THEIR RECORD
ON ACCESSIBILITY WAS PRETTY BAD, AND COME TO ME AND SAY THAT ON THE ISSUE IN WHICH I'M INVOLVED,
THEY SAID WHY DIDN'T WE DO BETTER?
THAT'S THEM ASKING ME, WHY DIDN'T THEY DO BETTER ON OUR ISSUE.
SO IT'S IMPORTANT AS WE LOOK BACK THAT WE LEARN THE LESSONS OF THEIR MISTAKES.
>> Steve: OKAY.
MORE BROADLY BASED, AS YOU APPROACH THE CAMPAIGNS, THE VARIOUS CAMPAIGNS FOR
COMMITMENTS YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THEM FULFIL DURING THIS ELECTION CAMPAIGN, WHAT'S AT THE
TOP OF YOUR LIST?
>> David: WE START FROM THE POINT OF VIEW THAT WE'VE LOST A LOT OF GROUND, ESPECIALLY OVER
THE PAST FOUR YEARS.
THE NEW NORMAL WHERE WE LIVE IS ACTUALLY WORSE FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES THAN IT WAS FOUR
YEARS AGO.
IT IS MORE DANGEROUS TO GO TO SCHOOL FOR STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES.
IT IS MORE DANGEROUS TO GO TO TRY TO SEEK OUT THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM FOR PATIENTS WITH
DISABILITIES.
IT'S EVEN MORE DANGEROUS TO GO SHOPPING AS A PERSON WITH A DISABILITY IF YOU'RE IMMUNE
COMPROMISED NOW BECAUSE THEY DON'T REQUIRE MASKS THERE.
AND YET WE ALSO DIDN'T MAKE ANY MATERIAL PROGRESS OVER THE PAST FOUR YEARS ON ACCESSIBILITY
UNDER THE DISABILITIES ACT.
NO NEW ACCESSIBILITY STANDARDS WERE ENACTED, NOT A SINGLE EXISTING ONE WAS STRENGTHENED,
THERE WAS NO SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT TO WEAK ENFORCEMENT, AND THE GOVERNMENT SPENT A WHOLE
LOT OF OUR MONEY ON NEW INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, NEW PUBLIC TRANSIT, NEW HOSPITALS,
AND NEW SCHOOLS WITHOUT ENSURING THAT THEY WOULD BE ACCESSIBLE.
AND IF YOU DON'T PLAN FOR ACCESSIBILITY, IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.
SO WHAT WE'VE SAID TO ALL THE PARTIES IS, FIRST, WE NEED THE PREMIER, WHOEVER IT IS, AND
WE'RE PREPARED TO WORK WITH ANYONE, TO BEGIN ON DAY ONE BY SHOWING STRONG LEADERSHIP.
WE NEED THEM TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THIS IS A PREMIER'S ISSUE.
THE CURRENT PREMIER HAS NOT EVEN MET WITH US.
THAT'S THE FIRST PREMIER IN ALMOST TWO DECADES WHO HAS REFUSED TO.
BUT THAT'S FINE.
LET HIM CHANGE HIS MIND NOW.
WE'D BE HAPPY TO DO SO.
WE NEED THEM TO TURN ABOUT AND COME ABOUT AND DO A MAJOR REVIEW OF THE EDUCATION SYSTEM BECAUSE
THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY BARRIERS FACING STUDENTS WITH DISABILITIES.
WE NEED THEM TO REVIEW THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
AS I SAID, THERE'S JUST TOO MANY BARRIERS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT ALLOWED A
CRITICAL CARE TRIAGE PROTOCOL TO BE EMBEDDED INTO THE DNA OF OUR HEALTH CARE SYSTEM WHICH
LEGITIMIZES DISCRIMINATION AGAINST PATIENTS WITH DISABILITIES, A DEEPLY TROUBLING
MEASURE THAT WE NEED ROOTED OUT.
THERE'S NO CRITICAL CARE TRIAGE GOING ON, BUT THE VESTIGES OF THAT AS AN ACCEPTABLE PRACTICE
REMAIN AND MUST BE ABOLISHED.
SO THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE'RE ASKING FOR, THINGS THAT WILL HELP EVERYONE WHO IS
WATCHING THIS SHOW BECAUSE EVERYONE WATCHING THIS SHOW EITHER HAS A DISABILITY NOW OR
IS BOUND TO GET ONE LATER IN LIFE.
>> Steve: I NOTE THAT ONE OF THE ASKS THAT YOU HAVE IS THAT YOU WOULD LIKE THE FOUR MAJOR
PARTIES TO CONSIDER CREATING A MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR DISABILITIES, AND I WONDER WHY
YOU THINK -- LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY: I WONDER WHY YOU THINK THAT WOULD MOVE THE YARDSTICKS
FORWARD INASMUCH AS SOMETIMES -- [AUDIO CONNECTION BROKEN] YOU'RE RIGHT, I'M NOT.
THE FACT IS, WE'VE HAD EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE A SENIOR MINISTER WHO IS ALSO THE MINISTER OF COMMUNITY AND SOCIAL
SERVICES OR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IS, THEY NEVER LOOK AT THIS FILE.
THEY GET NO TIME.
AND THEN YOU'RE BURIED IN A PUBLIC SERVICE THAT CAN'T EVEN LOOK AT IT.
WE NEED A STANDALONE MINISTER WHOSE SOLE JOB, WHO 24 HOURS A DAY IS DEDICATED TO MOVING
THINGS FORWARD.
AND FRANKLY, GET US A JUNIOR MINISTER, GET US A NEW MEMBER OF CABINET WHO IS HUNGRY AND EAGER
TO MOVE UP THE LADDER.
LET THEM WANT TO MAKE SOME SUCCESSES AND SCORE SOME WINS.
>> Steve: OKAY, INTERESTING.
FAIR POINT OF VIEW.
DAVID, I WANT TO CIRCLE BACK TO SOMETHING YOU SAID ABOUT THE PUBLIC TRANSIT BUILDING THAT'S
GOING ON RIGHT NOW, AND THERE'S A LOT OF IT.
BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF NEW SUBWAY LINES, LRTS AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.
YOU SAID THEY HAVEN'T TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT YET IN THEIR DESIGNS ACCESSIBILITY FOR DISABLED
PEOPLE.
IS THAT TO SAY THIS STUFF WILL BE BUILT WITHOUT THAT IN MIND OR IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO FIX THIS?
>> David: WELL, IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO AVOID MORE MISTAKES.
BUT WE KNOW FROM INFRASTRUCTURE, FROM NEW EDUCATION BUILDINGS, NEW HOSPITALS, NEW PUBLIC
TRANSIT THAT EVERY TIME THE GOVERNMENT GOES POURS MONEY INTO IT WITHOUT ATTACHING
ACCESSIBILITY STRINGS BEYOND OUR WEAK AND INADEQUATE BUILDING CODE, A BUILDING CODE THIS
GOVERNMENT NEVER FIXED, EVERY TIME THEY DO THAT, YOU END UP WITH NEW BARRIERS.
THIS IS JUST AS PREDICTABLE AS THE DAY IS LONG.
AND SO THAT'S WHY WE'VE SAID -- ONE OF THE REQUESTS -- THIS IS WHAT IS SO JAW-DROPPING ABOUT
THE FACT THAT THE PREMIER WON'T EVEN ANSWER US.
ONE OF OUR REQUESTS OF THE PARTIES IS: WILL YOU COMMIT THAT YOU WON'T USE PUBLIC MONEY TO
CREATE ANY NEW BARRIERS?
I MEAN, THAT'S JUST BASICALLY BEING RESPONSIBLE WITH THE PUBLIC PURSE.
AND DOUG FORD, ONE OF HIS BRANDING, IS HE WANTS TO SAY HE'S RESPONSIBLE WITH THE PUBLIC
PURSE.
THE OTHER PARTIES RESPONDED TO REQUESTS FOR COMMITMENTS ON THIS.
DOUG FORD SO FAR HASN'T.
NOW, IT'S NOT TOO LATE.
OUR GOAL IN THIS ELECTION -- WE'RE NON-PARTISAN -- IS NOT TO SUPPORT ANY PARTY OR OPPOSE ANY
PARTY, OUR GOAL IS TO GET COMMITMENTS FROM ALL THE PARTIES.
SO WE CALL ON DOUG FORD TO MEET OR BEAT THE PLATFORMS OF THE OPPOSITION PARTIES.
THEY'VE ALL MADE A SERIES OF HELPFUL COMMITMENTS.
DOUG FORD CAN DO SO TOO.
>> Steve: AND WE JUST SAY THAT IF PEOPLE WANT MORE INFORMATION ON THIS, THEY CAN GO TO YOUR
WEBSITE FOR THE ACCESSIBILITY FOR ONTARIO DISABILITIES ALLIANCE WITH DISABILITIES ACT
ALLIANCE AND YOU HAVE AN ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE ON MAY 13TH AT 7:30 IN THE EVENING.
PEOPLE CAN WATCH THAT AND LEARN MORE.
DAVID, THANK YOU FOR COMING ON OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.
>> David: THANKS VERY MUCH FOR COVERING THIS TOPIC.