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"DEADLINE WHITE HOUSE WITH
NICOLLE WALLACE" STARTS NOW.
>>> HI, EVERYONE, IT’S 4:00 IN
NEW YORK.
NEW YORK. A FEDERAL JUDGE TODAY BLASTED
DONALD TRUMP’S FORMER NATIONAL
SECURITY ADVISER AND ACCUSED HIM
OF SELLING OUT HIS COUNTRY.
THE JUDGE’S REBUKE WAS
ACCOMPANIED BY A STERN WARNING,
THAT FLYNN COULD FACE JAIL TIME
FOR HIS CRIME WHICH THE JUDGE
DESCRIBED AS A VERY SERIOUS
OFFENSE THAT DISGUSTED HIM.
THE JUDGE, EMMITT SULLIVAN,
PROVIDING THE LATEST DRAMATIC
AND UNEXPECTED TWIST IN THE
CURIOUS CASE OF MIKE FLYNN, A
THREE-STAR GENERAL TURNED
COOPERATING WITNESS IN THE
MUELLER PROBE, AFTER PLEADING
GUILTY TO LYING TO THE FBI.
THE JUDGE CLEARLY PIQUED BY
FLYNN’S LAWYERS WHO HAD TAKEN
THE POSITION IN THEIR SENTENCING
MEMO LAST WEEK HAT FLYNN HAD LN
TRICKED INTO LYING TO THE FBI.
THE JUDGE FORCING FLYNN TO
RESPOND TO POINTED QUESTIONS
ABOUT WHETHER HE LIED TO THE
FBI, AND WHETHER HE’D KNOWN AT
THE TIME THAT IT WAS WRONG TO DO
SO.
SO. FLYNN’S LAWYER’S INTRODUCTION OF
WHAT AMOUNTED TO A CONSPIRACY
THEORY BACKFIRED SPECTACULARLY,
BUT IT LIKELY CHEERED THE
PRESIDENT WHO TWEETED THIS THIS
MORNING.
MORNING. "GOOD LUCK TODAY IN COURT TO
GENERAL MICHAEL FLYNN.
WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT
HE HAS TO SAY.
DESPITE TREMENDOUS PRESSURE
BEING PUT ON HIM ABOUT RUSSIAN
COLLUSION IN OUR GREAT AND
OBVIOUSLY HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL
POLITICAL CAMPAIGN.
POLITICAL CAMPAIGN. THERE WAS NO COLLUSION."
WE’RE AWAITING A PRESIDENTIAL
RESPONSE TO TODAY’S FIREWORKS
AND FLYNN’S REFUSAL TO GO ALONG
WITH THE JEANINE PIRRO-APPROVED
CONSPIRACY THEORY ABOUT THE FBI.
FOR NOW, FLYNN WILL CONTINUE TO
COOPERATE WITH ALL ONGOING
FEDERAL INVESTIGATIONS WHILE HE
AWAITS SENTENCING IN 90 DAYS.
HERE TO TAKE B US THROUGH YET
ANOTHER DRAMATIC AND WILD DAY OF
DEVELOPMENTS IN THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION, SOME OF OUR
FAVORITE REPORTERS AND FRIENDS.
FORMER FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR
FOR COUNTERINTELLIGENCE, FRANK
FI
FI FIGLIUZZI.
FIGLIUZZI. FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY JOYCE
VANCE.
VANCE. WITH US AT THE TABLE, ROBERT
COSTA, "WASHINGTON POST"
NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER AND
MODERATOR OF "WASHINGTON WEEK."
KARINE JEAN PIERRE, SENIOR
ADVISE TORE MOVEON.ORG.
DONNY DEUTSCH IS IN THE HOUSE.
JONATHAN LEMIRE, "ASSOCIATED
PRESS" WHITE HOUSE REPORTER.
LET ME START WITH YOU, FRANK
FIGLIUZZI, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF
THIS JUDGE HAVING NONE OF THE
FLYNN CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND
REALLY MAKING ABUNDANTLY CLEAR
THAT LYING TO THE FBI IS
SOMETHING THAT SOMEONE WITH
FLYNN’S BACKGROUND SHOULD
CERTAINLY HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN
TO DO?
TO DO? >> SO THIS IS MORE ABOUT WHAT WE
DON’T KNOW, NICOLLE, THAN WHAT
WE DO KNOW AND BY THAT, I MEAN
THERE’S -- THERE’S INFORMATION
UNDER THAT REDACTED FBI FD302
THAT WE’VE ALL TRIED TO READ
THAT THE JUDGE IS PRIVY TO THAT
WE’RE NOT.
WE’RE NOT. MY INSTINCT IS TELLING ME THAT
THE JUDGE IS THINKING THERE’S
MORE ROOM FOR COOPERATION HERE,
AND WHEN WE COMBINES THAT WITH
THE ATTITUDE HE SAW IN FLYNN’S
LAST-MINUTE FILING LATE NIGHT,
HE’S THINKING THERE’S MORE TO
THIS AND HE WANTS TO SEND A
MESSAGE HERE AND PRESERVE
ADDITIONAL COOPERATION AND WHAT
HE’S DONE HERE, HE’S REALLY
CREATED A BAD DAY FOR FLYNN, BUT
IT’S NOT THE GREATEST DAY,
EITHER, FOR BOB MUELLER.
THEY THOUGHT THEY HAD THIS
ARRANGE
ARRANGE ARRANGED, AND NOW THERE’S A
TWIST.
TWIST. SO WE NEED TO SAY, SEE HOW THIS
PLAYS OUT.
PLAYS OUT. WE NEED TO ALSO THINK ABOUT
PEOPLE THAT COMING DOWN THE ROAD
LIKE JEROME CORSI, ROGER STONE,
HOW ARE THEY PERCEIVING TODAY’S
PROCEEDINGS?
PROCEEDINGS? DOES THIS MEAN THEY BETTER
COOPERATE FULLY AND TOTALLY?
OR DOES IT MEAN IT’S NOT WORTH
COOPERATING?
COOPERATING? THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN.
>> LET ME PRESS YOU A LITTLE BIT
ON WHY I THINK.
YOU MAY HAVE JUST EXPLAINED IT,
WHY A BAD DAY FOR MUELLER, IS IT
BECAUSE THEIR REQUESTS AREN’T
THE WORD OF GOD, THEY’RE STILL A
JUDGE THAT’S GOING TO TAKE THEIR
RECOMMENDATIONS, BUT MAKE HIS
OWN DECISION?
OWN DECISION? OR IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE THAT
IN YOUR MIND REPRESENTS A
STEPBACK FOR MUELLER?
>> THAT’S PRECISELY WHAT I’M
TALKING ABOUT, IF YOU’RE SITTING
ACROSS THE TABLE FROM THE
POTENTIAL COOPERATOR, YOU WANT
THEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT
COOPERATION IS ABSOLUTELY IN
THEIR BEST INTEREST.
YOU NEVER MAKE GUARANTEES.
EVER.
EVER. THAT’S DRILLED INTO YOU AS AN
AGENT, AS A PROSECUTOR, BUT YOU
DO WANT TO LAY OUT THE LIKELY
SCENARIOS THAT YOU’RE GOING TO
RECOMMEND TO THE JUDGE, AND
LET’S BE CLEAR HERE, THERE WAS
SUBSTANTIAL COOPERATION BY
FLYNN, AND HE WAS AT THE LOWEST
END OF THE SENTENCING
RECOMMENDATIONS SO HIS
COOPERATION CLEARLY HELPED HIM,
BUT THIS IS A WRENCH AND THIS --
IN THE MIX, AND THIS DOESN’T
HELP MUELLER WHEN HE SITS ACROSS
THE TABLE FROM A FUTURE
COOPERATOR.
COOPERATOR. EXCEPT TO SAY, LOOK, COHEN
DIDN’T TOTALLY -- EXCUSE ME,
FLYNN DID NOT TOTALLY, TOTALLY
COOPERATE, AND THE JUDGE STILL
WAS UPSET, YOU NEED NOW TO
TOTALLY COOPERATE.
TOTALLY COOPERATE. >> FRANK, SO MANY CONVICTED
FELONS, IT’S HARD TO KEEP TRACK
OF ALL OF THEM.
JOYCE VANCE, LET ME COME TO YOU
AND READ YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE
OF WHAT HAPPENED IN COURT TODAY
BECAUSE IT WAS DRAMATIC, AND I’M
REALLY INTRIGUED BY WHAT FRANK’S
SAYING BECAUSE IT SUGGESTS THAT
MUELLER, AGAIN, IS SORT OF
BLOWING UP THE IDEA THAT THERE’S
ANY WITCH HUNT.
HE’S SUGGESTING, HE WAS MORE, I
GUESS, GENEROUS TO MICHAEL COHEN
IN HIS SENTENCING PROCEDURES
THAN THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF
NEW YORK.
NEW YORK. HE ASKED FOR LESS THAN WHAT THE
JUDGE THREATEN TODAY.
THE JUDGE THREATENING JAIL TIME
FOR LYING TO THE FBI.
BUT I WANT TO READ YOU SOME MORE
OF THIS JUDGE.
THIS JUDGE HAS BECOME A
FASCINATING NEW FIGURE IN THIS
DRAMA.
DRAMA. THE JUDGE SULLIVAN, "MR. FLYNN’S
BRIEFING CONCERNED THE COURT
BECAUSE IT RAISED ISSUES THAT
COULD AFFECT OR CALL INTO
QUESTION HIS GUILTY PLEA.
I CANNOT RECALL ANY INCIDENT IN
WHICH THE COURT ACCEPTED A
GUILTY PLEA IN WHICH HE WAS NOT
GUILTY AND I DON’T INTEND TO
START TODAY.
START TODAY. I WILL INFORM YOU OF ANY FALSE
ANSWERS WILL GET YOU IN MORE
TROUBLE.
TROUBLE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?"
FLYNN SAYS "YOUR YOUR HONOR."
SULLIVAN SAYS "DO YOU WISH TO
CHALLENGE THE CIRCUMSTANTIALS S
UNDER WHICH YOU WERE INTERVIEWED
BY THE FBI?"
"NO, YOUR HONOR."
JOYCE, EXPLAIN TO US.
>> I’M GOING TO BE A NERDY
LAWYER FOR A MINUTE.
>> PLEASE.
>> PLEASE. >> AND TALK ABOUT SENTENCING AND
WHAT LAWYERS DO AT SENTENCING.
IT WAS CLEAR TO EVERYONE WALKING
IN, ALTHOUGH THE JUDGE WAS SMART
TO PUT FLYNN UNDER OATH AND GET
HIM TO SAY IT UNDER OATH, THAT
FLYNN WAS NOT CLAIMING THAT THE
FBI HAD ENTRAPPED HIM.
IF THAT HAD BEEN THE CASE, FLYNN
WOULD HAVE NEVER PLED GUILTY,
HIS LAWYERS WOULD NOT HAVE
PERMITTED HIM TO PLEAD GUILTY
AND THE JUDGE WOULDN’T HAVE
ACCEPTED THE PLEA.
INSTEAD, THE LAWYERS TRIED A
SENTENCING STRATEGY AND IT
MISFIRED REALLY BADLY, BUT WHAT
THEY WANTED TO DO WAS CAPITALIZE
ON FEDERAL RULES OF SENTENCING,
WHICH REQUIRE JUDGES TO CONSIDER
A SERIES OF ARTICULATED FACTORS
IN THE LAW, AND ONE OF THOSE IS
TO SENTENCE SIMILARLY SITUATED
DEFENDANTS SIMILARLY TO COMPARE
THIS DEFENDANT TO OTHERS IN THE
CASE.
CASE. TWO OTHER DEFENDANTS WHO’VE BEEN
CONVICTED OF THE SAME CONDUCT,
LYING TO THE FBI, HAVE RECEIVED
SHORT PRISON TERMS.
SO FLYNN’S LAWYERS WANTED TO
MAKE SURE HE DIDN’T GO TO
PRISON.
PRISON. THEY TRIED A STRATEGY TO
DIFFERENTIATE HIM FROM VANDER
SWAN AND PAPADOPOULOS AND IT
BACKFIRED AS WE SAW TODAY IN
COURT.
COURT. THIS WAS LAWYERING I THINK AS
OPPOSED TO CONSPIRACY POSTURING
WHICH SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE READ
INTO THIS.
INTO THIS. >> JOYCE, LET’S KEEP ME IN LAW
SCHOOL.
SCHOOL. I GOT ONE MORE FOR YOU.
SO THE JUDGE ALSO SAID, "I HAVE
TO CAUTION YOU THAT THE SENTENCE
IMPOSED TODAY MAY NOT BE THE
SAME SENTENCE YOU WOULD GET
AFTER COOPERATION ENDS.
THE COURT LIKES TO BE IN A
POSITION TO SAY THERE’S NOTHING
ELSE THIS DEFENDANT CAN DO TO
HELP THE UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA."
AMERICA." DO YOU AGREE WITH FRANK’S
ASSESSMENT THAT THAT REDACTED
DOCUMENT SUGGESTS THERE’S MORE
FLYNN CAN DO TO HELP TEAM
AMERICA FOR WHICH HE SERVES?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. IT MUST BE THAT THAT’S THE
REDACTED PORTION ONGOING
INVESTIGATION, WHICH FLYNN CAN
COOPERATE IN, AND IT’S UNUSUAL,
NICOLLE, TYPICALLY PROSECUTORS
DON’T ASK THAT DEFENDANTS BE
SENTENCED UNTIL THEIR
COOPERATION IS COMPLETE BECAUSE
YOU WANT TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF
A HAMMER OVER THEM IF THEY TAKE
THE WITNESS STAND AT A TRIAL.
YOU WANT TO ENSURE THAT THEY
CONTINUE TO COOPERATE.
SO ALONG THE WAY, IT’S BEEN
CONFUSING TO ME WHY MUELLER
WANTED FLYNN TO PROCEED TO
SENTENCING BEFORE EVERYTHING WAS
OVER, APPARENTLY THE JUDGE
DIDN’T LIKE IT MUCH, EITHER.
>> FRANK FIGLIUZZI, LET ME JUST
BRING THE FLYNN STORY INTO FOCUS
FOR A MINUTE BECAUSE THIS WEEK,
THE DOJ INDICTED TWO OF FLYNN’S
BUSINESS ASSOCIATES, IT’S ALSO
REPORTED THAT FARA VIOLATIONS,
BASICALLY DOING THE WORK OF A
FOREIGN GOVERNMENT WITHOUT
PROPERLY DISCLOSING IT AND
REGISTERING AND PAYING ALL THE
APPROPRIATE FEES IS SOMETHING
THAT MUELLER IS AGGRESSIVELY
PURSUING AND PROSECUTING.
CAN YOU JUST SORT OF PUT THE
FLYNN STORY IN ITS APPROPRIATE
PLACE AT THIS MOMENT?
>> SO WA WE’REHAT WE’RE SEEING H
NICOLLE, IS WHAT WE’VE SEEN WITH
OTHER ASSOCIATES TRUMP SURROUNDS
HIMSELF WITH, THIS
SELF-INTEREST, THIS
SELF-INTEREST, THIS PROFIT-DRIVING, MOTIVATING
PROFIT-DRIVING, MOTIVATING FACTORS.
FACTORS. THEY’RE IN IT FOR MONEY, IN IT
FOR THEMSELVES.
FOR THEMSELVES. WHERE FLYNN HAS WENT SOUTH IN
HIS CAREER, WHAT HAPPENED, WHY
THE BITTERNESS, WHY THE TURN
AGAINST NATIONAL INTERESTS, THAT
WILL BE STUDIED FOR A LONG TIME.
BUT NOW THESE TWO ASSOCIATES ARE
INVOLVED IN DOING SIMILAR
ACTIVITIES.
ACTIVITIES. SELLING OUT FOR OTHER COUNTRIES’
INTERESTS.
INTERESTS. DOING FAR MORE THAN LOBBYING
WORK, BY THE WAY.
ACTUALLY TALKING AND DISCUSSING
THE POSSIBILITY OF HAVING DOJ
CHANGE A POSITION IN ORDER TO
GET A TURKISH CLERIC BACK OUT OF
THE UNITED STATES, ALMOST IN THE
FORM OF SOME KIND OF RENDITION
OR MOVEMENT TO A THIRD-PARTY
COUNTRY.
COUNTRY. LOTS OF INVESTIGATIVE
JOURNALISTS WORKING ON WHAT IS
GOING ON HERE WITH THIS
POTENTIAL MOVE AND WORK WITH
TURKEY, BUT THIS IS BEYOND
RUSSIA.
RUSSIA. LET’S HAVE EVERYONE UNDERSTAND
THIS, EVERYONE’S FOCUSED ON,
WELL, FLYNN WAS TALKING TO
AMBASSADOR KISLYAK.
AMBASSADOR KISLYAK. NO, FLYNN WAS OPEN FOR BUSINESS.
HIS ASSOCIATES WERE OPEN FOR
BUSINESS.
BUSINESS. AND WE DON’T KNOW WHERE MULTIPLE
COMPROMISES MIGHT HAVE ENTERED
THIS PICTURE, WE DON’T KNOW HOW
MUCH TRUMP KNEW ABOUT THIS AND
WHETHER THOSE COUNTRIES THEY’RE
INVOLVED WITH MATCHED COUNTRIES
THAT TRUMP IS INVOLVED WITH.
AND THAT CASH FLOW AND WHYAGENTS
THIS IS A BAD GROUP OF PEOPLE
WHO DON’T HAVE OUR NATION’S
INTERESTS AT HEART.
>> THIS IS SOMEONE DONALD TRUMP
THOUGHT MORE OF THAN HE DID
MICHAEL COHEN, SOMEHOW SEEING IN
HIS MIND A DISTINCTION BETWEEN
MICHAEL COHEN WHO HE CALLED A
RAT AND MIKE FLYNN, EVEN THOUGH
HE, I THINK, PLEADED GUILTY
THANKSGIVING A YEAR AGO.
HE’S BEEN COOPERATING WITH
CONTINUE MUELLER LONGER THAN
ANYONE.
ANYONE. BUT DONALD TRUMP CONSTANTLY
SINGLING OUT MIKE FLYNN FOR
PRAISE.
PRAISE. LET’S WATCH.
LET’S WATCH. >> DID YOU DIRECT MIKE FLYNN TO
DISCUSS SANCTIONS WITH THE
RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR?
RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR? >> NO, I IT NT.
>> PRIOR TO YOUR INAUGURATION?
>> NO, I DIDN’T.
>> WOULD YOU HAVE FIRED HIM IF
INFORMATION HADN’T LEAKED OUT?
>> NO, I FIRED HIM BECAUSE OF
WHAT HE SAID TO MIKE PENCE.
VERY SIMPLE.
VERY SIMPLE. HE WAS CALLING COUNTRIES AND HIS
COUNTERPARTS.
COUNTERPARTS. SO IT CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN
OKAY WITH ME IF HE DID IT.
I WOULD HAVE DIRECTED HIM TO DO
IT IF I THOUGHT HE WASN’T DOING
IT.
IT. HILLARY CLINTON LIED MANY TIMES
TO THE FBI.
NOTHING HAPPENED TO HER.
FLYNN LIED AND THEY DESTROYED
HIS LIFE.
HIS LIFE. I FEEL BADLY FOR GENERAL FLYNN.
HE LOST HIS HOUSE.
HE’S LOST HIS LIFE.
AND SOME PEOPLE SAY HE LIED AND
SOME PEOPLE SAY HE DIDN’T LIE.
I MEAN, REALLY, IT TURNED OUT
MAYBE HE DIDN’T LIE.
>> YOU THINK THE KHASHOGGI
DEFENSE, MAYBE HE DID, MAYBE
HE -- HE LIED.
HE STOOD UP IN COURT TODAY AND
SAID HE LIED.
YOU HAVE COVERED THE TRUMP/FLYNN
RELATIONSHIP SINCE THE
BEGINNING, SINCE MIKE FLYNN WAS
ON THE SHORT LIST FOR V.P.
I REMEMBER HIM BEING ON THE SET
OF THE "MORNING JOE" SET AND
INTERVIEWING HIM ABOUT SOME OF
HIS POSITIONS BECAUSE HE
SUDDENLY EMERGED AS SO CLOSE TO
DONALD TRUMP THAT HE WAS ON THAT
VERY SHORT LIST TO BE VICE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. WHO’S MIKE FLYNN TO DONALD
TRUMP?
TRUMP? >> WELL, IF YOU WATCH THOSE CLIP
CLIPS, YOU SEE THE DEEPLY
PERSONAL WAY PRESIDENT TRUMP
SPEAKS ABOUT GENERAL FLYNN AND
IT’S REFLECT IFIVE OF WHERE THE
WHITE HOUSE IS.
TALKING TO PEOPLE CLOSE TO THE
PRESIDENT, RUDY GIULIANI AND HE
THINK ABOUT FLYNN IN PERSONAL
TERMS RATHER THAN A LEGAL
STRATEGY.
STRATEGY. HOW HIGHLY UNUSUAL IT IS FOR A
PRESIDENT TO WEIGH IN WITH GOOD
LUCK WISHES ON A DAY OF A LEGAL
EVENT LIKE THIS.
THEY THINK THIS IS SIEGE WARFARE
RUN BY JAY SEKULOW AND RUDY
GIULIANI AND PRESIDENT TRUMP.
THERE’S NOT A BIG LAW FIRM
ATTACKED.
ATTACKED. REPUBLICANS ON CAPITOL HILL FEEL
ISOLATED.
ISOLATED. THEY DON’T WANT TO GET INVOLVED
AT ALL.
AT ALL. YET THE PRESIDENT SIT TLG INTING
IN THE OVAL OFFICE WE’RE TOLD
TALKING ABOUT FLYNN, HOW HE