>>> TONIGHT, RUDY GIULIANI FACING EVEN MORE HEAT AS NEWLY
RELEASED TESTIMONY PUTS HIM AT
THE CENTER OF THIS UKRAINE
SCANDAL.
SCANDAL. PEOPLE SLAMMING HIS CAMPAIGN OF
LIES AND INCORRECT INFORMATION.
TESTIMONY THAT WAS CLEAR,
GIULIANI HAD INFLUENCE ON THE
PRESIDENT ABOUT UKRAINE.
ALL OF THIS COMES AS GIULIANI
FACES A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION
AND IS LAWYERING UP, ADDING
THREE NEW MEMBERS TO HIS TEAM,
INCLUDING ROBERT COSTELLO, WHO
AT ONE TIME WAS HIS INTERN AT
THE SDNY.
THE SDNY. THAT’S A LOT OF HEAT.
GIULIANI IS AT THE CENTER NOW OF
TWO PROBES.
TWO PROBES. HERE’S A SIMPLE WAY TO MEASURE
THE PRESSURE ON THE IMPEACHMENT
SIDE OF THE PROBE.
ONLY A MINORITY OF DEPOSITIONS
HAVE BEEN RELEASED THUS FAR AND
GIULIANI HAS BEEN CITED OVER 430
TIMES.
TIMES. THAT’S A LOT.
HOW IS HE RESPONDING?
HE’S CLAIMED EVERYTHING THAT HE
DID WAS TO DEFEND HIS CLIENT,
DONALD TRUMP.
DONALD TRUMP. A LINE HE WAS USING ON TV BACK
WHEN HE DID TV INTERVIEWS.
>> WHY AM I DOING IT, LAURA?
CAN’T YOU FIGURE IT OUT?
I’M HIS DEFENSE LAWYER.
I WAS SEEKING IN THE BEST
TRADITION OF BEING A LAWYER, A
>>> WE ARE BACK WITH FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, GLENN
KIRSCHNER.
KIRSCHNER. YOU KNOW, YOU’RE SCRATCHING YOUR
HEAD AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE
SCRATCHING THEIR HEAD IN AMERICA
RIGHT NOW, RIGHT?
>> YOU CAUGHT ME THERE, ARI.
>> THAT’S ALL YOU WERE DOING.
IT’S A METAPHOR FOR HOW WE TRY
TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HECK IS
GOING ON WITH MR. GIULIANI, AS I
REPORTED, HE WENT FROM SAYING HE
DOESN’T NEED A LAWYER TO HIRING
THREE AND BEING CITED CONSTANTLY
IN THIS IMPEACHMENT PROBE.
WHAT’S HAPPENING?
WHAT’S HAPPENING? >> YOU KNOW, IT REALLY SEEMS
LIKE GIULIANI HAS GOT SO MUCH
CRIMINAL EXPOSURE, POTENTIALLY.
YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SEE WITH
PARNASES AND THE FRUMANS OF THE
WORLD GETTING LOCKED UP, THOSE
ARE CHARGES THAT HAD TO BE
APPROVED OR AT LEAST NOT STOPPED
BY AG BARR.
SO THAT TELLS ME BARR MAY BE
WILLING TO GO SO FAR IN HELPING
THE PRESIDENT, BUT MAYBE NOT ALL
THE WAY.
THE WAY. SO WHEN WE HEARD REPORTED, ARI,
THAT PARNAS IS NOW SAYING THAT
HE IS INCLINED TO TALK WITH SOME
OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEES, THAT TO
ME SURE LOOKS LIKE A STEP ON THE
ROAD TO POSSIBLE COOPERATION.
I HAVE TO SAY THAT IF RUDY
GIULIANI IS NOT CHARGED, IT’S
SURE GOING TO SMELL LIKE BARR
PUTTING HIS THUMB ON THE SCALES.
AND WE HAVE TO SEE HOW FAR BARR
IS WILLING TO GO.
>> AND I WOULD NOTE THAT THE
U.S. ATTORNEY IN NEW YORK HERE,
MR. BERMAN, HAS REALLY BEEN
AGGRESSIVE IN EVERY CASE HE’S
COME UP AGAINST, EVEN THOSE WITH
PRESSURE.
PRESSURE. WHETHER YOU LOOK AT THE MICHAEL
COHEN CASE OR JEFFREY EPSTEIN.
PEOPLE REMEMBER IT FOR THE
SUSPICIOUS DEATH AND CUSTODY
WHICH WAS UNDER THE FEDERAL
BUREAU OF PRISONS, BUT THAT CASE
WAS BROUGHT AND MR. AVENATTI.
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT
SOMETHING THAT RELATES.
DO YOU THINK THAT LAWYERS MAKE
FOR GOOD CLIENTS OR DIFFICULT
CLIENTS?
CLIENTS? >> I WAS A PROSECUTOR FOR 30
YEARS.
YEARS. I NEVER HAD A CLIENT OTHER THAN
THE COMMUNITY AND THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE, BUT I HAVE TO BELIEVE
THAT LAWYERS MAKE LOUSY CLIENTS.
>> THEY DO.
>> THEY ARE GOING TO WANT TO
SECOND-GUESS.
SECOND-GUESS. >> LAWYERS MAKE DIFFICULT
CLIENTS, DOCTORS MAKE DIFFICULT
PATIENTS.
PATIENTS. AND THAT’S NOT JUST GIULIANI,
BUT A REASON WHY HE BE AN EXTRA
DIFFICULT CLIENT.
DIFFICULT CLIENT. HE SPENT WEEKS, EVEN THOUGH HE
KNOWS ALL THE LAWYERS IN NEW
YORK AT HIS LEVEL, FINDING A
LAWYER WHO WOULD REPRESENT
GIULIANI.
GIULIANI. FOUR PROMINENT ATTORNEYS
REPORTEDLY KLININGE ING DECLININ
REASONS.
REASONS. >> YEAH, THAT AND I WONDER HOW
MUCH MONEY RUDY GIULIANI HAS IN
RESERVE TO HAVE HIS LAWYERS.
LET ME TELL YOU, THE KIND OF
LAWYERS THAT ARE GOING TO
CONTEMPLATE TAKING ON RUDY
GIULIANI AS A CLIENT ARE NOT
GOING TO DO IT ON THE CHEAP.
SO THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE SOME OF
THE BEHIND THE SCENES CONCERNS
THAT SOME OF THESE LAWYERS HAVE
BEFORE WADING INTO THE DEFENSE
OF RUDY GIULIANI.
>> AND THAT GOES TO SOMETHING
ELSE.
ELSE. IF RUDY GIULIANI’S ACTIONS ARE
PARTIALLY TRUE, AND HE DID THESE
ACTIONS ON TRUMP’S BEHALF, HE
DID A LOT OF PRO BONO WORK FOR
TRUMP THAT’S NOW COSTING HIM A
LOT OF MONEY.
>> I’M LOSING YOU A LITTLE BIT.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT, WHAT I SAID
WASN’T THAT IMPORTANT.
I KNOW HOW IT IS WITH AUDIO.
THAT’S ON US.
YOU GIVE US YOUR FINAL THOUGHT,
BIG PICTURE.
BIG PICTURE. >> FINAL THOUGHTS ARE, IF RUDY
GIULIANI IS CHARGED, THERE’S
NOWHERE TO GO BUT UP, AND I HAVE
TO BELIEVE, RATHER THAN RUNNING
THE RISK OF ENDING UP IN THE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF PRISONS, WHERE
HE PUT SO MANY PEOPLE WHEN HE
WAS A U.S. ATTORNEY, HE’S GOING
TO SING.
TO SING. >> FASCINATING.
>> FASCINATING. AND A LOT RIDING ON THAT