WHAT IS KNOWN AS A DEFENSIVE
BRIEFING TO REPUBLICAN SENATOR
RON JOHNSON.
THIS BRINGS US TO PULITZER PRIZE
WINNING HISTORIAN AND ROGERS
CHAIR IN THE MERPAMERICAN PRESID
AT THE VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY,
JON MEACHAM.
GREAT TO SEE YOU.
YOU JUST LAUNCHED A NEW LIMITED
RUN PODCAST TITLED "FACT OF FACT
", WHICH YOU SAY EXAMINES HOW
AND WHY CONSERVATIVE AMERICANS,
MANY OF THEM, HAVE BECOME PRONE
TO DISINFORMATION AND TO
ANTI-DEMOCRATIC NARRATOR S.S.
SO DIVE INTO THAT A LITTLE, JON,
AND HOW IT MIGHT RELATE TO RUDY
GIULIANI.
>> YEAH, WE’RE IN THIS FLIGHT
FROM FACT.
THE WORLD FOR THE LAST FIVE
YEARS ON THE RIGHT, IN
PARTICULAR, HAS BEEN A REALITY
SHOW THAT, OF COURSE, THE
TRAGEDY WAS THAT IT ACTUALLY WAS
ALL OF OUR REALITY.
AND I THINK WHAT WE’RE SEEING IS
NOT A FIVE-YEAR DRAMA, BUT MORE LIKE A 60 OR 70-YEAR DRAMA.
LIKE A 60 OR 70-YEAR DRAMA.
THAT MANY FOLKS ON THE RIGHT,
AND THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT
PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE SIGNED
UP WITH DONALD TRUMP ON THE DAY OF THE ESCALATOR, BUT WHO HAVE
OF THE ESCALATOR, BUT WHO HAVE
MADE THEIR PIECE ANDEACE AND ARE
VERY MUCH WITH HIM.
YOU HAVE A SENSE THAT -- YOU SEE
THE SENSE OF GRIEVANCE, OF
VICTIMHOOD THAT ON THE RIGHT,
THEY BELIEVE THAT THE CULTURE
POLITICS, EVERYTHING’S A RAID
AGAINST THEM.
SO THE DRAMA IS, THE MOTIVATING
STORY IS TO TAKE AMERICA.
WELL, THAT PRESUPPOSES, RIGHT,
THAT IT HAS BEEN TAKEN AWAY FROM
THEM.
AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
HAS FASCINATED ME NOW FOR FIVE
YEARS IS WHY HAVE SO MANY
SEEMINGLY RATIONAL FOLKS STEPPED
INTO A WILDERNESS OF MIRRORS, TO
BORROW A PHRASE FROM THE COLD
WAR.
STEPPED INTO, AS GIULIANI
PROMULGATED, THE BIG LIE OF THE
STOLEN ELECTION.
STEPPED INTO A UNIVERSE THAT’S
DISASSOCIATED FROM THE
SELF-EVIDENT REALITY AROUND US.
AND YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH WHAT
THE LEFT WANTS TO DO.
YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH WHAT THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY WANTS TO DO.
THAT’S FINE.
THAT’S AMERICA.
BUT IT’S NOT TRUE THAT THERE’S A
PARALLEL DISASSOCIATION ON THE
LEFT.
THIS IS AN AMBIENT REALITY ON
THE RIGHT.
AND MY SENSE IS THIS GOES BACK
REALLY TO THE END OF WORLD WAR
II
II.
YOU HAVE A SENSE, A LOT OF
CONSERVATIVES BELIEVE THAT FDR
STABBED US IN THE BACK AT YALTA.
THAT HE SOLD OUT TO STALIN.
YOU HAVE, FROM EISENHOWER
THROUGH GEORGE W. BUSH, YOU HAD
A SERIES OF REPUBLICAN
PRESIDENTS WHO RAN TALKING ONE
WAY, BUT THEN ULTIMATELY
GOVERNED MORE OR LESS FROM THE
CENTER RIGHT.
AND SO, THE WARREN COURT, THE
BROWN VERSUS THE BOARD OF
EDUCATION, THE MIRANDA DECISION,
THE SCHOOL PRAYER DECISION IN
THE 50s AND EARLY ’60s.
THAT WAS A COURT WHOSE CHIEF
JUSTICE WAS APPOINTED BY THE
FIRST REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT IN 20
YEARS.
EISENHOWER.
RICHARD NIXON RAN ONE WAY,
RIGHT?
AND YET CREATES THE EPA,
PROPOSES A GUARANTEED INCOME,
YOU KNOW, PROPOSES A HEALTH CARE
PLAN TO THE LEFT OF WHERE OBAMA
WAS.
AND GOES TO CHINA.
AND SO -- AND THEN PRESIDENT
REAGAN, WHOM WE’VE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT, FEDERAL SPENDING ROSE
UNDER RONALD REAGAN.
SO DID DEFICITS.
HE NEVER MADE A SERIOUS EFFORT
TO PASS A PRO-LIFE AMENDMENT TO
THE CONSTITUTION, TO PASS A
SCHOOL PRAYER AMENDMENT TO THE
CONSTITUTION.
AND IF YOU ASKED GEORGE W. BUSH,
HE WOULD TELL YOU THAT THERE’S A
LINE BETWEEN T.A.R.P., THE
BAILING OUT OF WALL STREET IN
2008 AND TRUMP.
SO I WANT TO TAKE A STEP BACK
AND LOOK AT WHY IS IT THAT SO
MANY FOLKS WHO WOULD HAVE BEEN
REAGAN, ROMNEY, McCAIN
REPUBLICANS, WHY ARE THEY TAKEN
THIS TURN INTO DISINFORMATION?
AND I THINK PART OF IT IS, THEY
FEEL THAT EVEN THE
ESTABLISHMENT, AT SOME LEVEL,
DID NOT DELIVER FOR THEM.
AND WE’VE GOT TO FIX THAT.
>> YEAH.
I MEAN, AS YOU SAY, JON, THERE’S
ALWAYS BEEN SUSPICION OF
GOVERNMENT, SUSPICION OF MEDIA,
SUSPICION OF ELITES.
WE’VE ALL LIVED THAT AND
EXPERIENCED THAT, BUT THERE WAS
SOMETHING ELSE THAT HAPPENED
WITH DONALD TRUMP, WHICH YOU GET
AT IN THIS PODCAST.
WE’VE TALKED ABOUT THIS.
WE’VE GOT FRIENDS, WHO ARE SMART
PEOPLE, WHO WERE SENDING ME
STORIES ABOUT AN ITALIAN
INTERNET COMPANY THAT CHANGED
VOTES AND VOTING MACHINES.
AND THEY WANTED TO BELIEVE SO
MUCH OF THIS.
SO WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF WHY
RATIONALE PEOPLE SO WENT ALONG
FOR THE RIDE ON THE BIG LIE?
>> I THINK THAT YOU ALWAYS SEEK
OUT INFORMATION THAT AFFIRMS
WHAT YOU ALREADY BELIEVE, RIGHT?
THAT’S KIND OF A NATURAL HUMAN
IMPULSE.
ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS ABOUT
AMERICA AND ONE OF THE GREAT
THINGS ABOUT THE ENLIGHTENMENT,
ACTUALLY, WAS THAT WE WERE
SUPPOSED TO HAVE THE CAPACITY TO
RESIST THAT.
WE WERE SUPPOSED TO ACTUALLY
FOLLOW REASON, EVEN IF WE DIDN’T
AGREE WITH IT.
I THINK THAT THERE’S SOMETHING
APPEALING ABOUT NARRATIVES THAT
SUGGEST -- AND THIS IS A POINT
REAL MADE BEST BY RICHARD
HOFSTETTER AT COLUMBIA IN THE
FALL OF 1964.
IT’S COMFORTING TO BELIEVE THAT
THERE IS A CONSPIRACY OUT THERE.
IT’S COMFORTING TO THINK THAT
THERE ARE UNSEEN FORCES AGAINST
YOU, BECAUSE IT LIFTS YOUR OWN
ROLE IN THE WORLD, RIGHT?
YOU’RE NOT JUST LOSING AN
ELECTION.
YOU ARE A VICTIM OF UKRAINIAN
MACHINES AND ALL OF THAT STUFF
THAT GIULIANI AND ALL OF THOSE
FOLKS WERE OUT THERE TELLING US
IN THE PARKING LOT OF THE STORE.
THERE’S SOMETHING -- I CAN’T
EVEN REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS -- THE
FOUR SEASONS.
THAT’S RIGHT.
>> FOUR SEASONS LANDSCAPING.
HOW COULD WE FORGET?
>> THAT’S IT.
THAT’S IT.
SO THE FOUR SEASONS LANDSCAPING,
TO SOME EXTENT IS A MODERN-DAY
YALTA.
IT’S THIS PLACE WHERE SOMETHING
HAPPENED, RIGHT?
OR WHAT WAS IT, DOMINION IN THE
UKRAINIANS AND EVERYBODY’S
CHANGING EVERYTHING.
AND SO IT’S THIS INHERENTLY