Million dollar Bitcoin, 2025, over or under?
You know, I think it's kind of not a good idea to make forecasts like that.
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Guys, today, we have part 2 of my interview with Michael Saylor.
In the first one, he established he believes that Bitcoin is the apex asset the world has ever seen.
In part 2, he's going to show you why he's thinking on a whole different level
from the way most people view Bitcoin,
and he's also not going to answer one question you've got to see to believe.
Alright, guys. Here we go.
Let's talk about Bitcoin as the apex predator here,
Bitcoin as the Godzilla, if you will, in the story.
What about other cryptocurrencies?
Are you a Bitcoin maximalist or do you think that other cryptocurrencies have a place?
And if so, you know, are there any that pique your interest?
You know, my view on this is that the entire crypto theory is the theory of a decentralized network
where you sacrifice speed,
and you sacrifice performance and efficiency
in order to achieve the characteristic of decentralization and robustness.
Another way to say that is if I wanted to create a network that would allow for sovereign immortality,
I would put it on a crypto network.
So then the question becomes is, you know,
is there space for more than one network offering sovereign immortality?
Well, I mean, each crypto is like a religion.
So what is Bitcoin?
Bitcoin is crypto asset network optimized to provide for sovereign immortality of first layer money,
- a store of value money, digital gold. - Yeah.
Okay.
Or are there other forms of sovereign immortality
that you might wish to release into the ecosystem as its own religion to live--? By the way, it's got to--
You've got to be thinking, "I want it to last a thousand years."
- I mean, that's the reason you do it. - Yeah.
If you want it to last 10 years, you just create a company.
- If you want to, you know. - Right.
If you wanted to do something, you know, that you could do centrally but not in the US,
you just put an offshore exchange or you, you know, you go and you set up in Malta or whatever.
The reason you're creating a crypto is because you want something to last for hundreds of years.
So I think there are other things,
privacy,
providence,
you know, maybe some form of license.
However, you know, and by the way,
I mean, smart contracts, especially DeFi,
to the extent that you want to pursue any of these functionalities or use cases
with sovereign immortality in mind
and to the extent that Bitcoin doesn't support them, right?
Either, you know, if it doesn't support them in its base layer or through some kind of sidechain,
then it would make sense to pursue another crypto,
but I would say
there's a lot of people in the crypto industry that pursue functionality on top of Bitcoin via crypto network
when in fact they'd be more successful
if they simply create a centralized application on top of Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, look, you can provide speedy payments via Square Cash App.
Yeah.
That's a compliant centralized layer 2 application on Bitcoin.
Or you can pursue it via some kind of lightning-based wallet.
You know, it's also a layer 2.
And you could try to pursue it via a decentralized double blind, you know, layer solution
such that it just floats in cyberspace outside of the control of any company, CEO or government, right?
And that has a potential life, but it's not going to defeat Apple Pay or Square .
- Yeah. Right. / - Right? So you have to--
You have to figure out what niche or what addressable market you're pursuing,
and then you've got to actually do it the right way.
You have to do it with a truly decentralized crypto asset network.
It's very hard.
I think that it's quite certain that Bitcoin is a successful decentralized network for store of value.
I think that the entire rest of the crypto industry I would classify as venture capital.
- They're all pretty much venture or adventure-- - Yeah. That's a good way to put it.
And if you have an adventurous mindset and if you have venture capital,
and you wish to pursue those,
then it's justifiable,
but you need to come back to this observation which is--
like, it's not clear to me that you need a completely decentralized network
- in order to enforce digital property rights like an NFT. - Right.
You might be able to do that on this, you know, a centralized network.
I understand why Bitcoin needs to be decentralized because I get it,
but, you know, it's not clear to me that you couldn't monetize artwork,
- you know, using Google or Amazon - Yeah.
as the centralized exchange.
So you're going to have to come up with things that require cross-jurisdictional sovereign immortality
to convince me that the underlying crypto framework is the ideal way to do it.
- Otherwise, you're really just a Bitcoin entrepreneur, - Yeah.
or you're a crypto entrepreneur,
and you're working on some new thing,
you know, with some new technology which may or may not work.
Yeah. I mean, I think really, you know,
something you said that really piqued my interest in another interview I watched that you had done
was where you talked about the derivatives market and how Bitcoin plays into that.
For me, personally, I think that Ethereum or maybe Cardano or Polkadot,
probably Ethereum, I mean, it's got the first mover advantage.
It seems to be a better channel through DeFi to move the derivatives market
so that not just the elite can trade derivatives, but everybody could get access to that,
you know, quadrillion dollar, estimated quadrillion dollar market.
Where do you see Bitcoin versus another decentralized network
in terms of bringing the derivatives market?
Because, I mean, you mentioned $100 trillion market cap for Bitcoin through derivatives
I believe on one video.
What is your viewpoint right now?
I think that there's a lot of regulatory, you know, uncertainty if not regulatory peril
of trying to get into derivatives trading on crypto asset networks because it's a regulated area,
- and so you can trade derivatives on the CME. - Yeah.
- Right? - Yeah.
And you can trade derivatives on centralized exchanges.
You can-- you know, all sorts of exchanges, right?
And they're all subject to regulators.
So, you know, like,
do you need DeFi in order to trade derivatives?
No, you don't.
I mean, there's ways to trade derivatives right now.
I think that--
You know, Bitcoin is property,
- and it's legal to own property - Yeah.
in the US and in Europe,
and so there's certain clarity to owning something like that.
It's been normalized as property by the IRS and by the SEC and by the OCC.
I think that as you get into all these other areas,
stablecoins, DeFi, privacy,
they're all aspirational goals.
They just have a lot more uncertainty with regard to technology, regulation, you know,
and how they'll be interpreted across jurisdictions,
and that's what creates the risk.
So, you know.
You pursue all those things at your own peril.
Yeah, well, Ethereum mostly also has been, you know, declared not a security by the SEC.
I mean, there's a little ambiguity there if I remember correctly
where in one case there was precedent and then there was another that it was a little more ambiguous,
but that's why I think that, you know, Bitcoin,
we're going to run into a problem with the scarcity being too much.
I mean, if you look at how much you guys are buying,
how much Grayscale is buying, how much Square is buying,
how much other funds are buying,
there's like a billion dollar or I can't remember what the number is,
a crazy number that some, you know, company from Abu Dhabi is going to be purchasing,
and so eventually we're going to run into the scarcity problem
because of the stock to flow and things like that.
But Ethereum, to me, seems to be like the next place
where a lot of that institutional and corporate money will be flowing into.
I can't really see--
either I can't see there is a scarcity problem.
I mean, like, I don't even know what that means, right?
I mean, there's no scarcity problem.
You ha-- I mean, Bitcoin has enough Bitcoin to support all 7.8 billion people
and absorb $250 trillion of monetary energy.
- There's no lack of comp-- - You don't think eventually it's going to get hard to buy?
Because, you know, like,
if you look at the newly minted supply, like, right now, there's 900 being made a day.
Just between the top 4 companies buying Bitcoin right now,
they're buying 2,000 per day.
On average.
It may even be more than that now.
So, I mean, they're dipping into the circulating supply.
- No, it's not getting hard to buy. - We know that the circulating supply gets down, you know--
It's going to get hard to buy.
It's going to get exponentially easier to buy, and the price is going up.
- Yeah. - Like, for, I mean, like it's--
For you to say there's a scarcity problem, it's kind of like saying,
well, there's a number 1 through 21, and I'm afraid that we'll run out of numbers.
And we're trying to divide the numbers 1 through 21 between everybody in the human race,
and the answer is fractions.
Right?
There's infinite divisibility, right?
All you've got is mathematical integrity.
And so if the human race decides that it's going to store its value in Bitcoin,
then creating 37 million altcoins doesn't solve the problem.
You're just talking about counterfeiting 37 million fake currencies.
And that's just inflation, right?
So, no, you don't need Ethereum to store value, right?
I mean, Bitcoin solves the problem of store of value.
- Right? / - Yeah.
It solves it permanently.
And scarcity is just a synonym for conservation of energy
which is a synonym for mathematical integrity
which is a synonym for arithmetic.
- Right? / - Yeah.
So, you know, if I say that the laws of the universe, you know, respect the principles of mathematics
as described by Isaac Newton and the conservation of energy,
and that's Bitcoin,
- that's not a problem, right? - Yeah.
That's the solution to the problem.
- At the point that there is no-- - It's like self-manifesting, you know?
It's like through that, it proves it's worth.
Basically. I guess.
It's a good way to look at it.
- Yeah. / - Yeah.
So, okay. Okay. So it's very interesting.
I would say I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you on the underlying principle,
but I'll also say that when you look at corporations that will be wanting to add, you know,
cryptocurrency to their balance sheet,
obviously, Bitcoin primarily,
when, you know, the halving keeps the supply getting cut and getting cut,
eventually it's going to be hard to buy 1,000 Bitcoin over the counter.
The numbers are just going to be so insane.
- And I understand what you mean about the-- yeah? - The price is going up, Ben.
- It is going up, but you don't think companies--- - What the companies are having, they're irrelevant.
There's 21 million Bitcoin,
and that's simply the conservation of energy.
- The number could be anything. - Yeah.
The most important thing is that you have conservation of energy.
And when everybody on earth uses Bitcoin, the price of Bitcoin is going to be higher.
There's not a problem with it, right?
What you see is that more energy is flowing into the system.
If you put $10 trillion into the system,
you'll divide that by 21 million,
and the price of Bitcoin will be $500,000 a coin.
And when you put $100 trillion in the system,
you'll divide that by 21 million,
and the price will be $5 million a Bitcoin.
And when you put a quadrillion into this system,
it'll be 50 million.
You know, it's irrelevant. It's just a number.
- Right? I mean, - Yeah.
in that particular case, everybody gets Bitcoin at the price they deserve. Right?
- You don't need another crypto asset network - I like that. That's a good quote. Yeah.
in order to store money, right?
What you need is conservation of energy.
And you're right, the people that come into the network first are going to benefit versus those--
people that bought Bitcoin at a dollar are doing pretty good right now
instead of having to pay $50,000.
But, you know, the price will just keep going up so that the supply is always equal to the demand,
and the liquidity trading in the market is just going to keep advancing,
and as liquidity advances, it's going to attract progressively larger companies
and then, you know, small municipalities
and then states and then governments and institutions and the like,
- and that can go on forever. - Wow.
You can divide 21 million, you know, by 100 million satoshis a Bitcoin,
- it's going to work just fine. - Yeah. You're--
It sounds like you're playing 21million-D chess.
That's what it sounds like right now.
You're on a whole another wavelength with where you think this is going.
You truly do believe Bitcoin is Godzilla and that countries are going to adopt it.
And that's really refreshing to hear the No. 2 biggest owner of Bitcoin
- in terms of corporations, the CEO-- - Well, yeah, Ben, here's what I think.
I think it's the first trillion dollar brand in the history of the world.
- At least, one created by man if you discount the US dollar. - Yeah.
Some people say the dollar is the greatest brand,
but after the dollar,
Bitcoin is a trillion dollar monetary network.
It grew from zero to a trillion dollars in 12 years.
That's faster than Google which took 22 years to get to a trillion in market cap.
- Wow. That's a good way to put into perspective. - --for years.
So it's a trillion dollar network.
It's a proof-of-work network.
If you look at other crypto asset networks that purport to be a store of value,
the next best one is a hundred times smaller.
Ethereum's not even committed to being a a proof-of-work network.
- They're converting it into proof-of-stake network. - Yeah.
So if you're looking at a proof-of-work network,
you've got to go all the way to like Bitcoin Cash,
and what you have is you have one network which is 100 times bigger
- than the next best one. - Yeah.
It's 97% dominant, you know, as a proof-of-work crypto asset network.
So that being the case,
it seems quite clear that it's won that battle.
It is the bank in cyberspace if you want to deposit your money.
And it is the overwatching brand.
There's no reason why we wouldn't expect it to continue to be the brand
of long-term store of value money or base layer money
- for hundreds of years. - Yeah.
I love it. I mean, I think the one takeaway that everybody should have from this is
when we colonize Mars and we're trading with aliens,
we're going to be trading Bitcoin, I think.
Hopefully, the aliens take Bitcoin.
But the last question I want to ask you, Michael, is--
I'm going to give you a year and I want to know over or under
if you think Bitcoin would be a million dollars by this year.
Million dollar Bitcoin, 2025, over or under?
You know, I think it's kind of not a good idea to make forecasts like that.
Yeah, okay. You can't say where you think it's going to. Okay.
I can dig it.
- Michael-- - I'll tell you, over the long term,
I expect it to flip gold,
- and that takes it to $500,000. - Yeah.
And I expect it to march progressively toward $100 trillion market cap,
which is the value of all of the treasury assets
or at least a decent order of magnitude of the treasury assets in the world.
- Bitcoin is the ideal treasury asset network, - Yeah.
so it should march toward that with, you know, a degree of progression.
Pretty good ease.
And that would be $5 million Bitcoin.
And I think that's probably-- it's interesting you mentioned that
because that's kind of the number I've looked at and said,
"When it gets to that number, it could stabilize."
And, you know, obviously, the more money that flows into it,
the harder it's going to be to move,
and over time, it will get a little more stability, I think, so.
But, Michael, thank you so much for joining us today.
It's definitely been a really great interview.
I definitely want to have you on again down the road.
Maybe when Bitcoin starts climbing up a lot higher,
we can get your thoughts on that.
I certainly wish you guys at MicroStrategy good luck with trying to add more Bitcoin
as much as you can.
I hope our audience definitely got something out of this.
Is there anything you want to leave us with today?
- Thanks for having me. - Absolutely.
Alright, Michael, thanks for joining us.
Everybody, let us know what you think down below.
That's all we got.
Be blessed.
BitBoy out.