David Pakman: I was on Alternet the other day and I read an article titled "There Are
10 Times As Many Atheists As Mormons: When Will Non-Believers Become a Political Force?"
It's a good question, and here to talk about it is David Silverman, who's President of
American Atheists. Hey, David, good to see you.
David Silverman: Thanks for having me back on, David.
David: You know, I don't think Mitt Romney can win the GOP primary because he's a Mormon,
but we know that an atheist can't win either primary, he certainly can't win a general
presidential election. And it's a good point, there are many more atheists than a lot of
other religions; why have atheists not been able to legitimize themselves as a political
force, so to speak?
Silverman: Well, you know what? Atheists tend to be separationist. They don't... they tend
to shy away from anything that even resembles religion. And this is our problem. You know,
one of the things that I've said many times is that yeah, we've got... there are more
atheists in this country than there are Jews plus Muslims plus Hindus plus Buddhists combined
and doubled.
David: Well, but this is using your... I mean, last time you were on, we found out you have
a very loose definition of atheism. I think many... you consider a lot of people atheists
who would never call themselves that, right?
Silverman: I consider some Christians and Jews to be atheists who would never use the
word, but that doesn't escape the fact that they are atheists. If you don't have a god,
if you don't have a religion, you know, that's an atheist.
And from my perspective and from the perspective of this conversation, my definition is the
correct definition to use, because it doesn't matter if you're an atheist because you're
an agnostic or if you're a secular humanist or if you're a hardcore conclusionary atheist
like myself, what matters is that we all have pretty much the same objectives. We all have
the same... we all have the same objectives as far as getting ourselves electable and
making ourselves mainstream. And...
David: But so you agree... you agree that if a major presidential candidate said, "I
am... I am an atheist," he has no chance, right? He or she has no chance.
Silverman: Today, yes, I totally agree. Yes, I totally agree today. It hasn't been that
way in the past, and it won't be this way in the future.
One of the things that American Atheists is doing is working with other organizations
to create the Reason Rally. Have you heard of the Reason Rally?
David: I've heard of it, but I have to tell you, I'm not convinced it's going to make
it so a president can be an atheist.
Silverman: There are steps, OK? Now, if we have the largest atheist event in world history
in Washington, D.C. in the mall, and during that event we galvanize the movement, we say
OK, everybody, let's say, you can call yourselves whatever you want, but when it comes right
down to it, we're all atheists.
And we should stop trying to separate ourselves, oh, no, I'm not an atheist, I'm a secular
humanist. No, no, no, I'm not an atheist, I'm an agnostic. Oh, no, no, I'm not an atheist,
I'm a Bright. Guess what? They're all the same. They're all the same. And if we start
realizing that, we can galvanize, and we can earn the respect that we deserve on a political
level, and it can be done. It's not going to happen tomorrow, it's not going to happen
in 2012, but yes, I do believe that in our lifetimes, we will see a country where it
is perfectly possible and plausible for an atheist to become president. If that...
David: Hey, I want to-- I want to present to you the possibility that atheism is a religion,
because I was looking up the other... just a couple different definitions. And I'm sure
you've heard this before, but maybe my audience hasn't. And I looked it up, and it... "A cultural
system that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values."
In the case of atheism, you're... there may be less spirituality, but it's certainly a
system of moral values. Is atheism not a religion?
Silverman: Atheism is not a set of moral values, OK? You can be an atheist and a complete butthead.
You can be an atheist and rude, and you can be an atheist and a communist, and you can
be an atheist and a capitalist. Atheism...
David: Well, but you can be Christian and all of those things, too, and those are still
religions.
Silverman: Right, but those were... that goes to a different definition of a religion. The
different definition that they're using is the belief in a higher power.
Look, when it comes down to it, atheism is the absence of religion. Now, there are some
portions of atheism that call themselves a religion. They add in like the rules of secular
humanism. One could say that that's kind of religiony-looking. But atheism in and of itself
is simply the absence of religion. And if you use the broadest definition possible for
religion, then you could fit atheism in there, but you could also fit football in there,
OK? And then...
David: Hey, to... many people would agree with that. Many people... my producer's religion
is probably football. You're making a good point, David.
Silverman: Right. And that means that you've lost the definition of the word, OK? If atheism
is, in your view, the same as football and you're calling it a religion, then you're
just making up words.
The definition of a religion is, you know, the belief in the higher power. You can't
have, as far as we're concerned, a belief... a religion without a belief in a higher power.
You mentioned the word "spirituality". What does that even mean? Spirituality is one of
those really soft, pliable words that could mean two, three, four things at the same time.
Are you a spiritual person? Yes. Oh, well, that means you believe in spirits. Well, no.
But you said you were spiritual. So you have to watch out for spirituality. That's a very
mushy word. But in the soft sense, no, atheism is not a religion.
And I'll tell you what else, we have to make sure it stays that way, because, you know,
you have to think of what they're trying to do, why people are trying to put atheism into
religion. It is a lot like saying not collecting stamps is a hobby, OK? But pushing atheism
into religion, what does that do? Well, first of all, it makes us equal to them, which we're
not, we're above them, we're separated from them. And yes, I do definitely put atheism
above religion.
But more importantly, in the school systems, if atheism is treated as a religion, then
evolution will be treated as a tenant of that religion. And then the religionists will come
back and say well, we want equal time for our religion and for creationism in science.
That's part of...
David: Well, I'll talk to my producer about the football thing, then, but you make a very
good point about evolution. I want you to tell me, last time you were on the show you
were very direct, and I tried to make the case that I was agnostic, you said I was atheist.
Silverman: Right.
David: I now... I have a new presentation now when people ask me about being Jewish
or what have you, and I say you know, religiously, I don't find myself identifying with the Bible,
but culturally and ethnically, I'm very identified with... I identify very much so with the Jewish
faith. Is that... can you rate that explanation for me? Would that be acceptable to you, or
should I modify that, too?
Silverman: Well, you know, I get asked this question a lot because of the name David Silverman,
and because of the fact that I like matzah ball soup, and, you know, the little... I
like matzah brei, and I can dance the hora pretty well. I use the term "atheist" when
anybody asks what my religion is because they're asking about the religious aspect of Judaism.
So my religion is atheist.
The only time I will ever let the word "Jew" come out of my mouth is in conjunction with
the word "atheist". And that seems to really set it home. It allows people to understand
that yeah, I've got a Jewish mother and I was Bar Mitzvahed and I talk with my hands
sometimes, but in reality, my religion, or lack thereof, my religious belief, is atheism,
for lack of a better word. Again, my theology is atheism.
So what I rate your... what, how do I rate it? I rate it as good. It's good, depending
on who your audience is. If you're talking to another cultural Jew, they'll get you right
away. If you're talking to somebody who doesn't know too much about the Jewish culture, they'll
think you're a total hypocrite. They'll think...
David: Well, they think I'm a-- most of those people think I'm a hypocrite anyway, so I'm
not losing out there. David Silverman... hey, by the way, lots of reaction...
Silverman: (Just call yourself an atheist and get it over with) [Presumed, audio cuts
out]
David: Lots of reaction to your last appearance. A lot of our viewers found you incredibly
attractive. Anything you want to say to them? Do you want to address that in any way? I'll
open it up for a few seconds here.
Silverman: Thank you, and they're right. [Laughs]
David: OK, well, there it is. David, David Silverman...
Silverman: How do you...
David: Yeah, I don't know how you can address that. David Silverman, President of American
Atheists, www.Atheists.org is the website, am I correct?
Silverman: Yeah, it's A-T-H-E-I-S-T-S.org. And don't forget the Reason Rally, the Reason
Rally is the largest atheist event in world history, coming in the spring in 2012, www.ReasonRally.org.
It's a movement event, not an American Atheists event.
David: All right, thanks, David. We'll talk to you soon.
Silverman: Thanks for having me on again, David.
David: Bye.
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