FOUNDER OF THE DEMOCRACY DOCKET,
MARK ELIAS.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPENDING
SOME TIME WITH US.
I SEARCHED YOUR TWITTER FEED FOR
THE COUNT EVERY DAY OF HOW MANY
LAWSUITS THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN LOST
AND JUST, FIRST, CONGRATULATIONS
ON THE LEGAL VICTORIES.
BUT WHAT WAS IT LIKE TO FIGHT
AGAINST CASES THAT WERE NOT
ROOTED IN FACT?
>> SO, THANK YOU, FIRST OF ALL,
FOR HAVING ME TO SET THE RECORD,
TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES HAVE NOW
LOST 59 LAWSUITS.
>> OH, I’M SORRY.
>> THAT’S ALL RIGHT.
I THOUGHT THEY WOULDN’T MAKE IT
TO 60 AND THEN THEY FILED A
LAWSUIT IN NEW MEXICO AFTER THE
VOTE CERTIFICATION SO I SUSPECT
THAT WILL BE THEIR 60th LOSS.
IT’S BEEN A SURREAL EXPERIENCE
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THIS ELECTION
WAS -- WAS CLOSE BUT IT WASN’T
THAT CLOSE, RIGHT?
I MEAN, JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA
HARRIS WON 7 MILLION MORE VOTES
AND OVER 300 ELECTORAL VOTES.
EVEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE STATES
AT THE MARGINS, THEY WEREN’T
THAT CLOSE.
WE WEREN’T TALKING ABOUT
ELECTIONS IN ANY OF THESE STATES
DECIDED BY HUNDREDS OR EVEN A
FEW THOUSAND VOTES.
WE’RE TALKING ABOUT ELECTIONS
THAT WERE DECIDED BY TENS OF
THOUSANDS OR HUNDREDS OF
THOUSANDS OF VOTES.
SO, YOU KNOW, THE LAWSUITS THAT
WERE FILED ONE AFTER ANOTHER
AFTER ANOTHER WERE JUST, YOU
KNOW, SURREAL.
THEY WERE NOT GROUNDED IN FACT,
BUT THEY ALSO WEREN’T GROUNDED
IN LAW.
THEY WERE JUST KIND OF
HELTER-SKELTER EFFORTS TO TRY TO
UNDO WHAT WAS THE CLEAR OUTCOME
OF THE ELECTION.
>> DO YOU HAVE ANY DOUBT THAT
THE POLITICAL STRATEGY THAT
TRUMP AND HIS CAMPAIGN LANDED ON
HEADING INTO THE ELECTION WAS TO
GET CLOSE ENOUGH TO TRY TO SUE
THEIR WAY OR MUDDLE THEIR WAY OR
CHEAT THEIR WAY TO VICTORY?
>> SO I THINK THAT’S ONE OF THE
GREAT UNANSWERED QUESTIONS THAT
I HAVE IS WAS THIS ALWAYS THEIR
STRATEGY?
BECAUSE HONESTLY IT WASN’T A
VERY GOOD STRATEGY AND FOR ALL
OF THE PREPARATION THAT WE HEARD
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WAS ENGAGED
IN, YOU KNOW, REMEMBER, WE HEARD
ABOUT 50,000 POLL WATCHERS,
ARMIES OF LAWYERS, THEY HAD
HIRED THE BEST OF THE BEST.
IN THE END WHAT WE GOT WAS CINDY
POWELL AND McCRACKEN.
I’M NOT SURE IF THIS WAS
ACTUALLY THE STRATEGY THEY
PLANNED.
>> RIGHT.
DO YOU SEE WHAT CHRIS KREBS
TALKS ABOUT, WHAT GABRIEL
STERLING, ELECTION OFFICIAL IN
GEORGIA, CHRIS KREBS THE FIRED
FORMER HEAD OF CYBER SECURITY AT
DONALD TRUMP’S HOMELAND SECURITY
DEPARTMENT, THEY TALK ABOUT SORT
OF A NEW DIVIDE IN THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY WHERE SO MANY
OF THESE 126 HOUSE MEMBERS COME
TO MIND STAND WITH TRUMP ON THE
SIDE OF THE DELUSION, THE LIE,
THE REALLY DANGEROUS LIE THAT
HAS LED TO ANGRY MOBS, ARMED
MOBS OUTSIDE THE HOMES OF
ELECTION OFFICIALS AND
SECRETARIES OF STATE.
AND THEN ON THE OTHER SIDE THESE
VERY FEW REPUBLICANS, IT’S SAD
FOR ME TO SAY THAT, BUT THERE
ARE VERY FEW OF THEM STANDING ON
THE SIDE OF TRUTH AND STANDING
ON THE SIDE OF DEMOCRACY.
TO ME I DON’T SEE ANY WAY FOR
THOSE TWO TO EVER KNIT UP AGAIN.
WHAT DO YOU SEE FROM SORT OF THE
OTHER SIDE OF THEM IN THE
COURTROOM?
>> YEAH, I AGREE WITH YOU.
THAT’S WHY I WROTE THE PIECE
THAT I DID, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,
IT’S ONE THING FOR RUDY GIULIANI
TO SPOUT A BUNCH OF NONSENSE IN
A PARKING LOT IN PENNSYLVANIA
AND IT’S ANOTHER THING FOR THEM
TO, YOU KNOW, SPOUT SOME OF THAT
IN COURT AND GET THROWN OUT, BUT
WHAT REALLY STRUCK ME WAS NOT
THE TEXAS SOUGHT THE RELIEF IT
DID.
I CHALKED THAT UP WHEN I FIRST
SAW IT TO THE FACT THAT ATTORNEY
GENERAL PAXTON MAY HAVE HAD HIS
OWN LEGAL PROBLEMS THAT HE WAS
TRYING TO CURRY FAVOR WITH
DONALD TRUMP FOR A PARDON.
BUT THEN TO WATCH 17 OTHER STATE
ATTORNEYS GENERAL SIGN ON TO
THAT, NONE OF THOSE OTHER 17
STATES ATTORNEYS GENERAL HAD TO
DO THAT.
AND 126 TO SIGN ON.
LITERALLY THROWING OUT THE
ELECTIONS OF FOUR STATES, TENS
OF MILLIONS OF VOTERS, IS SUCH A
DEEPLY, DEEPLY TROUBLING
ANTIGOVERNMENT EFFORT.
WE HAVE A DIVIDED COUNTRY MUCH
MORE PERNICIOUS AND DEEPER THAN
I EVER THOUGHT POSSIBLE.
WHICH IS A DIVIDE WHETHER OR NOT
WE ARE ALL COMMITTED TO THE IDEA
OF FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, AND
THAT’S REALLY TROUBLING.
RESTORING THAT IS --
>> YEAH.
I WAS GOING TO BRING IT TO YOUR
OP ED TODAY WHICH BROADENS THIS
OUT TO THE ASSAULT ON ONE OF THE
CENTRAL TENANTS OF DEMOCRACY.
IT SEEMS TO ME THE JUDICIARY IS
THE ONLY BRANCH THAT HASN’T BEEN
CORRUPTED BY DONALD TRUMP, AND I
WONDER WHAT YOU THINK THE FIRST
STEP IS TO SORT OF REINFORMING
PEOPLE OR REINVIGORATING
PEOPLE’S ENTHUSIASM FOR
DEMOCRACY AS AS ANOTHER METHOD F
ARTICULATING THE DANGERS OF
DOING.
>> LOOK, IT’S GOOD THAT THE
JUDICIARY HELD ACROSS THE BOARD,
REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC
APPOINTEES, STATE AND FEDERAL
JUDGES, BUT ULTIMATELY, OUR
DEMOCRACY CAN’T RELY ON JUDGES
RESISTING THE IMPULSES OF
AUTOCRATIC POLITICIANS WHERE
THEY’RE GOING TO BE SUPPORTED BY
SUCH A WIDE BASE OF THEIR
POLITICAL PARTY.
BECAUSE THE NEXT TIME, WE MAY
NOT HAVE A CIRCUMSTANCE OF A
BLOWOUT ELECTION.
THE NEXT TIME, WE MAY NOT
HAVE -- IT’S NANCY PELOSI, NOT
KEVIN McCARTHY HOLDING THE
GAVEL.
WE COULD HAVE A CIRCUMSTANCE
THAT IS MUCH, MUCH MORE
PROBLEMATIC.
AND I DIDN’T WORRY ABOUT THIS
BEFORE THE ELECTION, BECAUSE IT
NEVER OCCURRED TO ME THAT YOU
WOULD SEE ELECTED REPUBLICANS
LOOKING TO THROW OUT THE VOTES
OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, AND IN
SOME INSTANCES LOOKING TO THROW