AND FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA AND
AN MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR JOYCE
VANCE.
VANCE. >> SO WHEN WE’VE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT HOW THE INSTITUTIONS WILL
HOLD UP THE INSTITUTIONS WILL BE
JUST FINE.
JUST FINE. WE’VE TALKED ABOUT THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT, WE’VE TALKED ABOUT
CONGRESS, WE’VE TALKED ABOUT A
LOT OF OTHER THINGS.
THE FEDERAL JUDGES, OUR JUDICIAL
SYSTEM, AND, WILLIE, YESTERDAY
YOU HAD A FEDERAL JUDGE WHOSE
JOB WAS TO FOLLOW THE LAW.
SO, YOU KNOW, I REALLY DON’T
CARE WHAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES IS SAYING.
I DON’T CARE WHAT THE PUNDITS
ARE SAYING.
ARE SAYING. I DON’T CARE WHAT THE WORLD IS
SAYING.
SAYING. WE’RE GOING TO LOOK AT THIS
CASE.
CASE. WE’RE GOING TO LOOK AT WHAT HE
DID AND HE’S GOING TO FACE
JUSTICE.
JUSTICE. AND, BOY, THIS REAGAN APPOINTEE,
LATER ELEVATED BY GEORGE H.W.
BUSH SHOWED WHAT JUDICIAL
INDEPENDENCE MEANS FROM THE
THREATS OF A PRESIDENT AND THE
THREATS FROM, YOU KNOW,
COMMENTATORS ON TV OF AND RADIO.
>> MUCH TO THE FRUSTRATION OF
PRESIDENT TRUMP, THESE PEOPLE
CONTINUE TO DO THEIR JOBS.
JUDGES, PROSECUTORS IN THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT, THE ATTORNEY
GENERAL NOW IN THE STATE OF NEW
YORK WHO IS SHUTTING DOWN THE
TRUMP FOUNDATION.
TRUMP FOUNDATION. THAT’S GOING TO BE PUT TO BED.
ALL THESE PEOPLE CAN GO ABOUT
THEIR JOB, INCLUDING, BY THE
WAY, BOB MUELLER GOES ABOUT HIS
JOB AS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR, AS
YOU SAID, NOT LISTENING TO THE
NOISE AND AS YOU MENTIONED,
THOSE CONSPIRACY THEORIES
BLOWING UP YESTERDAY.
GENERAL FLYNN HIMSELF BLEW THEM
UP.
UP. HE WENT INTO COURT AND HE SAID
OF COURSE I KNEW LYING TO THE
FBI WAS A CRIME AND I CONTINUED
TO ADMIT MY GUILTY IN THIS CASE.
>> AND THE JUDGE MADE HIM, MIKE,
DO THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN,
BASICALLY REPEAT SEVERAL TIMES
THAT HE WAS GUILTY, THAT HE LIED
TO THE FBI.
>> JOE, YESTERDAY WAS A TERRIFIC
DAY FOR THE UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA AND THE SYSTEMS OF
GOVERNMENT THAT STILL WORK,
INCLUDING THE FEDERAL JUDICIARY
SYSTEM AND JUDGE EMMET SULLIVAN.
AS YOU INDICATED, HAVING GENERAL
FLYNN, A THREE-STAR GENERAL
STANDING IN FRONT OF HIM REARE
PETEDLY ANSWERING QUESTIONS FROM
THE JUDGE, DID YOU KNOW?
WERE YOU LYING?
YES.
YES. I MEAN, A SERIES OF QUESTIONS,
AFFIRMATIVELY ANSWERED BY A
DEFENDANT AND THE FEDERAL JUDGE,
EMMET SULLIVAN SITTING THERE ON
THE BENCH TELLING HIM BASICALLY
YOU CANNOT COME INTO MY
COURTROOM AND TRY TO CUT A BACK
DOOR DEAL WITH NO JAIL TIME AND,
YET, YOUR LAWYERS FILING A
PETITION TO THE COURT CLAIMING
THAT, YOU KNOW, WELL, YOU WERE
TRICKED INTO THIS WANT YOU’RE
NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET INTO
THAT.
THAT. >> A MAN THAT INTEL MINDS, WAS
TOO STUPID TO KNOW WHAT HE WAS
DOING WHEN IT COMES TO THE FBI
AGENTS.
AGENTS. THE JUDGE CALLED BS ON IT AND
WAS ANGRY.
WAS ANGRY. AND I’LL TELL YOU WHAT, I THINK
IT’S WHAT PROMPTED EVERYTHING
YESTERDAY.
YESTERDAY. HE WAS A TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE
CALCULATION ON GENERAL FLYNN’S
LAWYER’S PART.
LAWYER’S PART. >> A JUDGE ORIGINALLY APPOINTED
BY RONALD REAGAN POSTPONED THE
SENTENCING FOR EX WHITE HOUSE
NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER
MICHAEL FLYNN.
MICHAEL FLYNN. WHILE DELIVERING A STINGING
REBUKE OF THE RETIRED ARMY
GENERAL’S ETHICS AND WARNING HE
MIGHT NOT SPARE FLYNN FROM
PRISON FOR HIS CRIME.
THIS AFTER FLYNN REJECTED
SEVERAL OFFERS TO CHALLENGE THE
ZS OF HIS FBI INTERVIEW
AFFIRMING TO THE COURT THAT HE
WOULD GIVE UP HIS RIGHT TO DO SO
FOREVER.
FOREVER. THE ANSWERING THAT HE WAS
GUILTY, SULLIVAN TOLD FLYNN,
QUOTE, YOU LIED TO THE FBI ABOUT
THREE DIFFERENT TOPICS AND YOU
MADE THOSE FALSE STATEMENTS
WHILE YOU WERE SERVING AS THE
NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES MOST SENIOR NATIONAL
SECURITY AID.
SECURITY AID. I CAN’T MINIMIZE THAT.
WHILE THE JUDGE LATER
APOLOGIZEDER FOR MISSTATING THE
TIMING OF FLYNN’S WORK FOR
TURKEY, HE SEVERELY CRITICIZED
HIS FAILURE TO REGISTER AS A
FOREIGN AGENT AND FALSE
STATEMENTS ABOUT WHO PAID HIM.
ARGUABLY, THAT UNDERMINES
EVERYTHING THIS FLAG OVER HERE
STANDS FOR.
STANDS FOR. ARGUABLY, YOU SOLD YOUR COUNTRY
OUT.
OUT. THE COURT IS GOING TO CONSIDER
ALL OF THAT.
"THE WASHINGTON POST" WRITES
THAT WITH THESE WORDS, FLYNN
STANDING STRAIGHT AND FLANKED BY
ATTORNEYS LOOKED SHAKEN.
HIS JAW CLENCHED.
AT ANOTHER POINT, SULLIVAN
ASKED, HYPOTHETICALLY, COULD HE
HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH TREASON?
THE PROSECUTORS SAID THEY HAD NO
CONCERNS ABOUT TREASON.
THE JUDGE URGED FLYNN TO
CONTINUE TO COOPERATE, QUOTE, I
CANNOT ASSURE YOU THAT IF YOU
PROCEED TODAY YOU WILL NOT
RECEIVE A SENTENCE OF
INCARCERATION.
INCARCERATION. BUT I ALSO HAVE TO TELL YOU IF
AT SOME POINT THE GOVERNMENT
SAYS YOU HAVE CONCLUDED WITH
YOUR COOPERATION, YOU COULD BE
SENTENCED.
SENTENCED. >> THE EASY SENTENCE WAS GENERAL
PETRAEUS GOT, SAYING, WELL, HE
DIDN’T GET JAIL TIME.
THE JUDGE SAID, WELL, I
PERSONALLY THOUGHT PAPA TRAYUS
SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN JAIL TIME.
THIS IS A JUDGE FROM EVERYTHING
WE’VE HEARD THAT TAKES SERIOUSLY
GOVERNMENT SERVICE AND
ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO
NATIONAL SECURITY.
NATIONAL SECURITY. IF SOMEBODY RAISES THE RIGHT
HAND AND, YOU HAPPEN, THEY TAKE
AN OATH THAT THEY’RE GOING TO
PROTECT AND DEFEND THIS COUNTRY
AND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE
UNITED STATES, THIS JUDGE TAKES
IT DEEPLY PERSONALLY WHEN HE --
WHEN SOMEONE DOES NOT.
TO HELP RUN THIS COUNTRY IN
FOREIGN POLICY AND YOU’RE
BEHAVING THIS WAY?
>> THIS IS A JUDGE WHO DOES TAKE
OATHS OF OFFICE GOVERNMENT
RESPONSIBILITIES VERY SERIOUSLY.
FLYNN’S LAWYERS WERE SAID TO
HAVE BEEN HAPPY WHEN HE WAS
NAMED TO PRESIDE OVER THIS
SENTENCING HEARING BECAUSE HE
HAS A HISTORY OF PUSHING BACK ON
THE GOVERNMENT WHEN HE THINKS
THE GOVERNMENT HAS EXCEEDED ITS
AUTHORITY.
AUTHORITY. AND FLYNN’S LAWYERS MUST HAVE
HOPED THAT THEY COULD APPEAL TO
JUDGE SULLIVAN’S INDIGNATION BY
ARGUING THAT THESE FBI AGENTS
WHO CAME IN TO INTERVIEW FLYNN
HADN’T WARNED HIM, HADN’T TOLD
HIM THAT HE WAS -- HE SHOULDN’T
LIE TO THE FBI.
THE OPPOSITE HAPPENED.
THE JUDGE JUST BLEW A GASKET.
THE LANGUAGE HE USED WAS
EXTRAORDINARY.
EXTRAORDINARY. I’M NOT HIDING MY DISDAIN AND
I’M NOT HIDING MY DISGUST.
I THINK HE WENT A LITTLE TOO FAR
IN ACCUSING FWLINLYNN OF TREASON
>> A COUPLE THINGS ON THAT,
THOUGH, DAVID.
THOUGH, DAVID. THE LATTER IS A DISTINCTION
WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE.
HE’S TALKING TO FOREIGN ENTITIES
HE’S TRADING HIS INFLUENCE AND
ESPECIALLY WITH RUSSIA HE’S ON
HIS WAY TO THE WHITE HOUSE.
I DON’T KNOW THAT THERE’S A
GREAT DIFFERENCE THERE.
ON THE FIRST PART, FEDERAL
JUDGES, THAT’S JUST WHAT -- I’M
SORRY, JOYCE CAN TELL US THIS IN
A LITTLE BIT.
THAT’S JUST WHAT FEDERAL JUDGES
DO.
DO. IF THEY’RE ANGRY, THEY COME IN
AND THEY SHAKE PEOPLE UP, HEY,
WHY DIDN’T YOU GUYS FIGURE --
>> JOE, YOUR BASIC POINT IS
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. THE JUDGES ARE A WILD CARD IN
ANY CRIMINAL CASE AND HERE WE
SAW IT, THE TABLE HAD BEEN SET.
MUELLER THOUGHT HE KNEW EXACTLY
WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.
BOOM.
BOOM. IT’S ALL DIFFERENT BECAUSE THIS
JUDGE REALLY FELT SPECIALLY,
EMOTIONALLY, ANGRY.
EMOTIONALLY, ANGRY. >> SO JOYCE ADVANCE, I’M
INTERESTED TO HEAR YOUR
PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT HAPPENS IN
THERE.
THERE. I THINK THE REASON GENERAL FLYNN
WAS DESCRIBED AS HAVING A
CLENCHED JAW AND LOOKING SHAKEN
IS BECAUSE THE PROSECUTORS
RECOMMENDED HE GET NO PRISON
TIME.
TIME. AS HE STOOD BEFORE JUDGE EMMET
YESTERDAY, IT WAS CLEAR THAT THE
JUDGE WAS CONSIDERING PRISON
TIME VERY SERIOUSLY AND MAY
STILL BE, DEPENDING ON WHAT KIND
OF COOPERATION GENERAL FLYNN
CONTINUES TO LEND THE SPECIAL
COUNSEL.
COUNSEL. >> EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE, A
PROSECUTOR RUNS INTO A JUDGE WHO
SIMPLY IS NOT INCLINED TO
FOLLOWER THEIR SENTENCING
RECOMMENDATIONS.
RECOMMENDATIONS. IT DOESN’T HAPPEN A LOT OF THE
TIME, BUT IT DOES HAPPEN.
AND SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS
REALLY INTERESTING HERE IS THAT
THOSE REDACTED SENTENCING MEMOS
THAT WE’VE ALL BEEN READING AND
TRYING TO FILL IN THE BLANKS
BEHIND THE BLACK LINES ON, JUDGE
SULLIVAN HAS BEEN ABLE TO READ
THOSE MEMOS IN THEIR ENTIRETY.
SO HE’S SEEN THE THE CONDUCT
THAT FLYNN ENGAGED IN AND IT
LOOKS TO ME LIKE THE ESSENTIAL
PROBLEM HE HAS WITH THE
GOVERNMENT IS HE DISAGREES WITH
THE CHARGING DECISION.
THE GOVERNMENT CHARGED FLYNN
WITH ESSENTIALLY LYING TO THE
FBI.
FBI. IT CARRIES A RELATIVELY LOW
SENTENCE UNDER THE SENTENCING
GUIDELINES.
GUIDELINES. JUDGE SULLIVAN SEEMED TO THINK
THAT HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN CHARGE
DOLLARS WITH MORE SIGNIFICANT
CRIMES AND THAT LOOKS LIKE THE
ORIGIN OF THE ISSUE THAT WE SAW
YESTERDAY.
YESTERDAY. >> JOYCE, TO THAT POINT, DID YOU
GET A SENSE FROM THE JUDGE’S
COMMENTS FROM THE BENCH THAT THE
MENTION OF PETRAEUS, THE
REDACTIONS THAT HE CLEARLY HAS
READ THAT WE HAVE NO -- WE HAVE
NOT SEEN, HIS ANGER AT THE
SENTENCING DISPARITIES INVOLVED
HERE WHERE YOU HAVE A THREE STAR
ABOUT TO WALK ON A SERIOUS
CHARGE, WHERE YOU HAD GENERAL
PETRAEUS WHO WAS WALKED ON A
SERIOUS CHARGE.
SERIOUS CHARGE. >> MIKE, I HATE TO SAY THIS,
BRING THIS UP, BUT DONALD TRUMP
ACTUALLY TOLD ME THAT HE
COULDN’T PICK PETRAEUS AS HIS
SECRETARY OF STATE BECAUSE ALL
THE OTHER GENERALS TOLD HIM THAT
HE HAD VOILED A SACRED TRUST HE
IS BEEN GIVEN.
JUST A LITTLE FOOTNOTE TO THIS
QUESTION.
QUESTION. BUT GO AHEAD.
>> DID YOU GET THE SENSE THAT
JUDGE SULLIVAN IS ANGRY ABOUT
SENTENCING DISPARITY HERE?
>> I’M NOT SURE IF IT’S
DISPARITY SO MUCH AS IT’S THIS
IDEA OOH ABUSE OF A POSITION OF
TRUST.
TRUST. THAT’S A CONCEPT THAT’S BAKED
INTO THE GUIDELINES.
YOU ACTUALLY GET AN INCREASE IN
YOUR SENTENCING CALCULUS IF YOU
ABUSE A POSITION OF TRUST.
THE LAWYERS FOR GENERAL FLYNN
MADE, I CAN, AN EXTREME
MISCALCULATION.
MISCALCULATION. WHAT THEY WANTED TO DO WAS
RECOMMEND GENERAL FLYNN SHOULD
RECEIVE A SENTENCE UNLIKE OTHERS
IN THE MUELLER CASE WHO HAD BEEN
ACCUSED OF THIS SAME CRIME AND
THEY HAD RECEIVED BRIEF
CUSTODIAL SENTENCES.
CUSTODIAL SENTENCES. FLYNN’S LAWYERS WANTED TO MAKE
SURE THEIR GUIDE DIDN’T GO TO
JAIL.
JAIL. SO THEY USED THE EXAMPLE OF
GENERAL PETRAEUS.
GENERAL PETRAEUS. THEY COMPARED IN THIS INSTANCE
FATALLY GENERAL FLYNN’S ADVICE
FROM THE FBI TO THAT THAT WAS
GIVEN TO PAPADOPOULOS AND
VANDERSWAN AND THE JUDGE WASN’T
BUYING ANY OF IT.
FOR THIS JUDGE, IT WAS THE WRONG
WAY OF TEEING UP THE ISSUES.
>> ON THE WHOLE PETRAEUS THING,
MIKA REMINDED ME THAT HE DID NOT
TRUST ANYONE THAT --
>> HE SAID HE WORKS OUT TOO
MUCH.
MUCH. >> AND AS DONALD SAID, THAT WAS
A MISUSE.
A MISUSE. >> PEOPLE WILL THINK YOU’RE
KIDDING.
KIDDING. >> BUT MICHAEL IS IN VERY GOOD
SHAPE.
SHAPE. >> HE SAID ANYBODY THAT WORKS
OUT THAT HARD IN THE MORNING, IT
IS A MISUSE OF YOUR ENERGIES.
>> SO, THAT HE, LET ME GO TO
RICHARD HAASS NOW.
>> I’M NOT SURE WHERE TO GO WITH
THAT.
THAT. >> IT’S NOT MEANT TO BE BAIT.
IT’S JUST INFORMATION.
>> I’M JUST REPORTING.
>> DOING YOUR JOB.
>> I REPORT, YOU DECIDE.
SO ANYWAY, RICH AFTERWARD, I CAN
THIS JUDGE NOT ONLY SENT A
MESSAGE TO GENERAL FLYNN AND THE
WHITE HOUSE, BUT I THOUGHT HE
SENT A GREAT MESSAGE TO OUR
ALLIES ACROSS THE GLOBE THAT HAD
BEEN CONCERNED THAT MAYBE THE
UNITED STATES WAS WAVERING ITS
BELIEF IN THE RULE OF LAW, IN
ITS NORMS.
ITS NORMS. THIS JUDGE SAID YESTERDAY, THE
CIRCUS MAY BE IN TOWN, BUT WHEN
IT LEAVES, THE PEOPLE THAT
MESSED UP THE STREETS WILL BE
CLEANING THE STREETS UP AND
THERE WILL BE A RETURN TO
NORMALCY.
NORMALCY. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. IT’S AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE.
WE THINK A FOREIGN POLICY IS
SOMETHING DIPLOMATES DO OR THE
NATIONAL SECURITY COUNSEL DOES.
IT’S SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT
THINGS WE DO OR WHAT WE ARE.
IT’S THE FUNCTIONING OF THE
COURTS, IT’S THE FUNCTIONING OF
THE MEDIA, IT’S THE FUNCTIONING
OF THE SOCIETY.
WHETHER WE SEND THE MESSAGE THAT
AMERICA WORKS.
AMERICA WORKS. WHEN WE’RE DYSFUNCTIONAL, THAT
UNDERMINE EGGS OUR APPEAL AND