Dr. Joe Beam: We hear it a lot. You know, people shouldn't stay
together for the sake of the kids. I mean, if the marriage is
in trouble, it's better that you just separate and don't think
about the kids are going to be fine. Like I said, we hear that
a lot. What really upsets me is that sometimes people tell us,
that's what their marriage counselor told them. Don't worry
about the kids, you make yourself happy. Kids are
resilient. Well, I'm one of those people who did divorce his
wife and leave his children, many long years ago. And then we
Alice and I remarried after three years of being apart. And
to this day, I can see the effect on the children that we
had at that time. We had one more child after we got married
the second time, and this is her right here. I'm Dr. Joe beam.
And this is Kimberly Holmes, my youngest daughter, who was born
in the second marriage, and also the CEO of image international
marriage helper, if you will. Kimberly, I know that in your
master's thesis to get your degree in psychology that you
studied about the effect that divorce has on kids, I would
like for you to talk about that and get some of the research
from your research, other research you've put together.
And I'm going to be more asking questions and contributing
because this time, I'm one of those people who actually did
the thing that we say, not the best thing to do.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: Well, you made it right. I will say that.
I will say that. But yes, it's definitely something that I'm
glad I did a lot of research on for my master's degree. Because
the more I read, the deeper I dove, the more I uncovered about
how rampant the effects are on children when their parents
divorce. And so when we hear those things like, the kids will
be fine. The kids can be resilient. They can be, but they
shouldn't have to be.
Dr. Joe Beam: And and we'd not say that it necessarily dooms
kids, but without a doubt it has an effect on him. Dr. Jake
Morris from Lipscomb University, which was talking about and he
said, How could the antibody thing that says a significant
event has no effect on the kid at all. It's just ridiculous to
think like that
Kimberly Beam Holmes: even a move just from one house to
another can have what is considered on the ACES scale,
adverse childhood experiences, even just moving can be an
adverse childhood experience, much less divorce of the
parents, which of course, is another item on the ACES scale.
Dr. Joe Beam: So what kind of things? What kind of things are
they finding, and these studies have been done worldwide. And
they're not being done just like lab at church people or things
like that? These are sociological studies, some of
which have been done by major universities. So what kinds of
things have they been funding?
Kimberly Beam Holmes: And even more than that, a lot of these
are longitudinal studies. So they're starting with following
the kids earlier in their life, and then seeing the effects of
them as they, as they grow older as they get married.
Dr. Joe Beam: So it's not a snapshot. It's a long video, if
you will.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yes, yes. Several of them are. I mean,
where do you want to start? Well,
Dr. Joe Beam: this, let's talk about what it does to their
Miller star, something simple. How does it affect her
schoolwork, if at all?
Kimberly Beam Holmes: Yes, so effect of divorce on a child's
schoolwork because there has been a change at home. And
typically, this change is, at best going to keep the child in
their same house, except the removal of one of the parents,
which is still traumatic. But at worst, they're moving maybe into
worse living conditions than before, don't have the same
access to materials, tutoring, things like that, that the child
needed as before, that that's the spectrum of this. But
regardless of where it is, on the spectrum, we see across the
board, that children are more likely to struggle with their
grades, they're more likely to be held back, or, or even
experience issues in school. And not just behavioral issues,
although that's part of it. But even just learning issues where
they're not able to concentrate as more, they're more likely to
struggle with ADHD. We also see that they tend this isn't just
for school. But children tend to have an increase in hostile
behaviors, or an increase and in anxiety, and it tends to show up
differently in males and females. So males are typically
going to be more angry, more hostile in their behavior acting
out in that way. Whereas girls are more likely to suffer from
anxiety. If they, if they're around the age of 14 to 16.
They're more likely to become sexually promiscuous, when this
has all happened. And again, just go back to the core, it's
because there has been an upheaval of their normal
circumstances. And many times the kids aren't getting the
attention that they used to get from either parent. Because
think of it this way. You have a child who's well, let's take
Let's take me I grew up in a situation to stable parents, and
I would come home at the end of the school day and mom would be
there, she'd make me a snack. When you got home, you would
help me with homework, we would all watch TV and eat dinner
together. That's just how I remember my childhood. But if
the situation were different, where you and mom had either
separated or divorced, then I would come home and guess what
mom was probably working. And so she wouldn't be there to give me
a snack. I may be struggling with homework, but you're not
coming home to help me with it. And then instead of eating
dinner together as a family, now it's like, figure out what you
can feed yourself because mom is trying to take care of us
financially and her own emotions. So she may not even
have the ability to focus in tune in on me. And so where I
had a bunch of resources before, now, because of the separation
or divorce, I have way less resources as just the child not
even talking about less resources that the parents have,
because of the split of the household income. And so that is
just the lived experience of why this happened. So of course,
girls, they're more likely to be anxious because
Dr. Joe Beam: they're more likely to be promiscuous. Hmm.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: I don't know that I can say from the
research as why they're more likely to be promiscuous. But
my, my, some my, what I would guess, is because they are
looking for male attention, I would
Dr. Joe Beam: use that to, I need some kind of affirmation.
They may even feel rejected, right? Even if the father says,
I love you, I love you the fact that he's not right there all
the time, she may feel rejected, and having a male, pay attention
to her, I could see how that would happen.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: And there may and it may also be because
there's not a male to help instill values for a mom to help
instill values, or depending on how the marriage ended, they may
have seen one or both parents being sexually promiscuous. And
so there's a lot of different reasons that can come in here.
But another thing in talking about the fathers and the
fathers being absent, is that's typically what happens typically
the mother gets custody at least how should the custody, right?
And so all of a sudden, the parenting is not 5050. They call
it that. But in the research, it's one parent gets 50% and
then some and the other parent gets less than 50%. Right? And
so the the father who typically has that less than 50% What the
startling research shows is, after one year of divorce, 25%
of fathers are no longer a part of their children's lives. And
that number grows to 50% of fathers who are no longer a part
of their kids lives after 510 years after divorce has
happened. So does the research indicate plan? Yes, the some of
the reasons for it include when that that father remarries, if
they remarry and start a family of their own, then that's where
they're now focusing their attention. But some other
reasons that it can fall into here is that the father tends to
stay more active and involved in their kids lives if the kids are
young at the time of divorce. So probably six and under, or if
the father has shared interest with their children, and their
children are highly affectionate towards them, when the dad is
with them. So if you dig a little deeper under that, the
dad is more likely to stay involved in their kids life when
the dad feels like he is being emotionally soothed when he's
with that child,
Dr. Joe Beam: as opposed to soothing the child is exactly
what to do with a soothing him. Wow, exactly. makes that sound
like really bad there. Kimberly, is that what we're trying to
say?
Kimberly Beam Holmes: What I'm trying to say is divorce is the
gift that keeps on taking, as I heard a researcher say that's
done a lot of research in this and I, I believe, I do believe
at the core. Most people want to do what's best, they want to try
and do what's best. I don't think many people know what to
do.
Dr. Joe Beam: So you're not throwing dads under the bus. No
saying that the way life comes out of this is that many dads go
that direction.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: And I think a lot of it is because
there's hurt, right? There's a lot of hurt feelings for the
father to go back and be around the mom again and with the kids
and maybe he gets guilt trips. When he goes back. Maybe it
hurts him to see the hurt on his kids faces because it's a
constant reminder to him of what he did and the decision he made.
And so maybe a subconscious way that he's dealing with that is
just by continuing to
Dr. Joe Beam: affirm all of that. When I'd come spend time
with your sisters If you weren't alive back then I would feel
guilty that I'd really didn't know what was going on in their
lives. I'd see the pain in their eyes, I'd see the more pain when
they left. And yeah, it didn't make me stop going to see them.
But I really wanted to see them and dreaded seeing him at the
same time because of that.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: Right? Right. And so I believe a lot of
fathers are trying to cope the best way. They know how, but we
need to teach them how to actually cope in a way that not
only helps them but also is best for the kids. And so that's
going to be, you know, the father intentionally showing up
when he says he's going to show up, spending that time with
them, never missing it, making sure that he makes it a
priority, even when it's uncomfortable.
Dr. Joe Beam: So what about when kids get older, like adults does
the same effect on them?
Kimberly Beam Holmes: Absolutely, it does in one research, and I
believe this research study ended at the 20 year
longitudinal mark. But it said that the effects of divorce on
children last even 20 years after the divorce has actually
occurred. And we see that there tends to be a higher rate of
divorce for the children by the time they grow up and get older
and get married. And interestingly, if the divorce or
separation occurs when a child is 15 or younger, then it is
more likely that that child as they get older, will have a
higher number of cohabitation, and a higher number of marriages
and divorces themselves,
Dr. Joe Beam: is that because basically it was modeled for
them that if you're not happy, you just get out. And that's
what they want him doing.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: That's basically it. And so in another
research study, they found that when the option of divorce was
removed from a couple that was from parents that were
contemplating divorce, when that option was removed completely,
that not only did it actually increase the rate in which they
were able to deal with conflict and solve it, but also kept the
marriage together. So from that what we're seeing is, yeah, when
divorce is no longer an option, you figure it out, because you
have to, but those kids ended up having great futures, being
able, in terms of you know, they tended to be more steady in
school, they tended to be more likely to have long lasting
marriages with one partner. All of those things were true of
that. And so it's not a lot of people will say, but if we're
fighting a lot, then it's better for the kids that we divorce.
But that's not true. What's best, according to the research,
of course, is a low conflict.
Dr. Joe Beam: So if the kids are in danger, or mom or dad's in
danger, then obviously we got to do something about that. But
you're saying, right, I
Kimberly Beam Holmes: wasn't I didn't say abuse. Okay. So
conflict. So conflict, like we fight we disagree. We don't
communicate well, right. It's actually better the worst that
it's well, let me say it this way, it's actually better for a
child to experience a high conflict to high conflict
parents who are able to work it out, than to have their parents
divorce and continue to stay in high conflict. See that? Yes.
Which is what typically happens to people that a lot, they
continue to fight all the time, throw each under throw each
other under the bus, because they don't co parent well,
because it's the same issues that they had in their marriage.
They're just bringing it into their co parenting, they haven't
fixed anything.
Dr. Joe Beam: And sometimes they actually try to program the
children against the other
Kimberly Beam Holmes: Absolutely, which is called triangulation
and counseling and it is absolutely terrible to do.
Dr. Joe Beam: It's gone. It may give you some sense of
satisfaction will I paid him or her back, but what you're doing
to your kids, right? borderlines evil, in my estimation,
Kimberly Beam Holmes: right? A child should never have to be
put in that kind of situation, because you're kind of forcing
them to grow up and become an adult, and to be your friend at
the same time. So what children need is to be children to be
loved to be taken care of.
Dr. Joe Beam: They shouldn't be your confidence, helping you get
through the wars.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: No, no. And that can be very tempting,
because they're the one you come home to. And maybe you don't
want them to love their dad, maybe you don't want them to
love your mom, their mom because that person hurt you. But what's
best for the child is that they are able to have healthy
relationships with both parents.
Dr. Joe Beam: So it's another big thing we need to mention
before we start wrapping this up,
Kimberly Beam Holmes: that what I mean, we could continue to go
on for forever about attachment issues that occur when a child
has experienced divorce or separation and all of those
things, but we've covered the majority
Dr. Joe Beam: of so we can actually look at people and say
if you're having marriage difficulty to the point you You
think that you need to end the marriage? Please also consider
your children. Now, I know you might be saying I love my
children, they're gonna be okay. And maybe you've got somebody
telling you, they'll be fine. Get we're showing your research
from around the world, indicating all kinds of things.
I have more than 300 articles, Kimberly and my computer that
tell about the negative effects of divorce on children. So we
can help, right? Absolutely, we can help. It can be as simple as
if you're having this trouble. And what we're sending is
bringing true with you, then understand that we have a three
day intensive that can help you figure out, can we make it work?
Because if you can, it's awfully good for you. But it's also
awfully good for your children. And in just three days, we can
help you realize whether this is fixable or not even if it
appears completely unfixable right now. So Kimberly, how
would they find out about a three day workshop
Kimberly Beam Holmes: by going to marriage
helper.com/workshops. And we'll also have that link in the show
notes, whether you're watching or listening, so you can easily
just click it. The other thing I would add to that is, even if
you come to our workshop and decide this isn't going to work,
you will still have the tools to be great co parents, which is
what the kids need, because
Dr. Joe Beam: we teach a lot of relationship principles in the
workshop that are also directly applicable to parenting.
Kimberly Beam Holmes: Absolutely. So the key takeaways of this
episode is divorce does have an effect on children. It doesn't
have to be the end of everything, but we can't turn
our heads away and say they're just going to be fine. So it is
of utmost importance that both parents work together as much as
they can to ensure that they do what is best for their children,
and if possible, to work together to save the
relationship to save the marriage because that's what's
best for the child.
Dr. Joe Beam: Well, thank you for all that research that
you've been reading and doing. And thank you folks for being
part of this. So as we end this program, thank you Kimberly for
sharing and we hope to see you in the next episode of
relationship Radio.