Please welcome Michael Wolff.
(cheering and applause)
Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me.
There are few people, outside of ISIS,
who are loathed by the president as much as you are.
After writing this book, is there even
a tiny little part of you that is afraid
because Donald Trump definitely bears a grudge.
No, I actually think the opposite thing will happen.
I think that in a relatively short period of time,
he will get in touch with me to claim credit for the book.
So in the end, he will be the author
of the best-selling book in the world.
You know, it's-it's such a fascinating
and fun read.
You read about this White House, and--
Here-here's what I-I-I wonder about the book:
Like, what do you intend the book to be?
Is this a journalistic foray into the White House?
Or is it a salacious account of just all the juicy tidbits
of, like, the inner workings of what's going on?
Well, I think th-those are the same things in this instance.
Um, um, but, yes, it is a book
about what I saw and what I heard.
And what I saw and what I heard was, um,
uh, it's flabbergasting.
I mean, these are the greatest bunch of knuckleheads
I-I think that have ever been assembled in one place.
Let-let's go, let's go back, let's go back a step,
because the way you're speaking about them now, I would go,
but then, how were you there? How were you--
Like, how did the knuckleheads roll with you for as long--
How many, how many days were you in the White House?
Well, that's how I got in, because they're knuckleheads.
-I, literally... -(laughter)
I-I mean, you know, if anyone-- I mean, I'm, uh,
I-I've done this before.
I have a fair-fairly large body of work
in which I've been nice to nobody ever.
Um, um, and they seemed--
Well, uh, they seemed never to have read anything
that I had written and...
-I walked... -Are you saying Donald Trump doesn't read?
To say the very least, yes.
But-but they-- so they let you in to the White House,
and give me the full scope
of what you were doing and where you were doing it.
So were you allowed to roam around on the inside?
Were you in meetings that you,
-you weren't supposed to be in? -What you have to understand
-about the West Wing, it's very small. -Right.
-It's like a, like a college admissions office. -Okay.
And, um, and so you-you go in.
You make an appointment with whoever
your appointment is with.
They pass you in and then you're there.
You sit on the couch waiting for your appointment
-to come and get you. -Uh-huh.
Now, as it happens, and this is part of the,
of the disorganization of this White House in particular--
but all White Houses are bad at this--
um, no, your appointment does not-- isn't kept.
So you're left waiting there, and, uh, you know,
your appointment's at 10:00 in the morning,
maybe 3:00 you get in.
-So you're left, basically, -Right.
unattended in the West Wing.
Um, in-in the beginning, that was kind of...
humiliating.
-I mean, you know. -Right, 'cause you're waiting around.
Yeah, I mean, you're just waiting there.
You're trying not to be noticed.
Um, but then that became a kind of...
a kind of technique.
"Oh, nobody notices me.
I'm invisible here."
Um, and then, actually, people would...
the people would take pity on you.
They would say, "Oh, who-who are you waiting for?"
And I would say, "Oh, you know, Steve-- Steve Bannon."
And they would say, "Oh, God, yeah.
"He's never coming out.
"Why don't you come back with me, and we'll...
and we'll, you know, have a... have a Diet Coke."
-Um... -(laughter)
(laughs) I want to know who that person was now.
The, uh, the thing about the book
is, uh, it is fun, and it's interesting to read,
but there are, like, points in the book
that people have pointed out
as being, you know, um, not true.
So they'd be like, "Oh, this fact is off."
And, you know, Wilbur Ross' job
and certain people that you've commented on
maybe weren't factually correct.
Don't you think that hurts
the journalistic aspect of the book,
is having those errors included?
No, I actually think that there's almost...
I... The-the amount of errors in this book
are-are, uh, a piffle.
Um, there's...
This is an absolutely accurate account
-of what I saw and what I heard. -Right.
So if we got, um...
I think we-we missed...
we missed an "L" in "Hillary."
Um... You know, these are the kinds of things
in the-in the many editions of this book
that apparently will... are to come,
-we will put that "L" back in. -Well, when you... Right.
When you say... when you say, "heard things," though,
are there some people in the White House
that would say things to make Trump look bad
or make the administration look worse than it is?
Like, did you ever consider that,
where people would just tell you a story that maybe wasn't true?
Well, yeah, but that's important to understand.
Remember, these are the people in the White House.
-Right. -This is their White House.
-They are Trump's staffers. -Right.
So you have...
And-and that was the...
the-the really revelatory thing here,
is that the people around Trump
were exactly the people saying,
"The emperor wears no clothes here."
That this is a real... a really troubled place,
and Trump ultimately is somebody--
and I think almost... I think everybody would agree.
Everyone in the White House would agree
that Trump is someone who should not be president.
That is a frightening c...
concept or reality to live within,
the fact that everyone in that White House
agrees on a concept
but they would never say that publicly.
How do they then justify
-working for him and defending him? -Well...
-Is it the idea of keeping up the pretense? -Well, actually,
actually, they-they do say it publicly.
I mean, I think most reporters who are very...
who are close to, um, close to this White House,
-reporting on this-this White House -Yeah.
have heard exactly what I've heard.
So it's really the reporters
who have not quite said this publicly.
Um, and they haven't said this publicly,
-because they have to go in another day. -Right.
Um, um, I e-expect,
at this point, that I'm not gonna have to go in,
-back again, and I'm... Yes. -Pro-Probably. Probably not.
Um, so I can say this. But it is...
This is not... I-I am not saying...
Among any... everybody who knows-knows
what's going on there, I'm not saying anything controversial.
-Right. -The president of the United States is surrounded
by-by people who believe he shouldn't have this job.
Let's talk about the cheeseburgers.
(laughter)
That is probably one of the most beautiful pieces of information
you have given to us as the public.
Donald Trump and his love for cheeseburgers.
Is it as obsessive as it sounds?
Is he as in love with this food as you make him out to be?
Yeah, well, he's not in love with food--
he's in love with the food that he can eat which is...
seems to be, um, um,
highly limited, a cheeseburger.
A cheeseburger at 6:30 at night
in bed watching television.
That is such a specific routine.
But he's not... he's not sleeping at 6:30,
'cause we know he tweets at night.
So he's just in bed with the burger.
He's in bed with the burger, with the televisions,
and with the telephone.
(laughter)
This is...
(laughter)
Forgive me. It's hard for me to just move on when...
Just take in that scene. That's it.
I-I am. I'm-I'm taking it in.
Donald Trump in bed with a cheeseburger,
on the phone, watching TV.
When you look at Donald Trump and you, um...
you think of him as Donald Trump the negotiator,
Donald Trump the person... the businessman,
the man he has painted him-himself out to be,
you look at the stories that now come out,
let's say on immigration, government funding.
Donald Trump unable to corral a deal,
unable to get lawmakers to do what he would like them to do.
Were-were there any signs of this
-when you were in the White House? -Well, yeah, actually,
the people around him say... (sighs)
"He's never negotiated anything."
Um, um, and that seems actually to be true.
In his business career...
Then-then they-they point out,
"You know, you know, he can't even read a balance sheet."
Um, so in his business career,
he's the guy going on television,
and-and other people are doing the negotiating.
-Right. -Donald Trump does not do...
does not negotiate,
does not, um, uh...
he doesn't do any of the kinds of things
that he told us that he did.
-He's not a businessman. -So is he...
-He's a television performer. -If he doesn't know
the balance sheet, does he know policy?
And he certainly doesn't know...
Not only does he not know policy,
he doesn't care about policy.
This is...
This is the profound point here. He doesn't...
Of the... of all the reasons that one would theoretically
be the president of the United States,
he's-he's not interested in any of those.
Right. That's the big one that he doesn't
fundamentally care about, which means
that someone is the real president.
So, is it John Kelly? Is it Stephen Miller?
Who... who's running the show?
Well, I think, you know, that's an interesting thing. I mean,
because most of the people who went into this White House
-with him are now out of this White House. -Right.
Um, so he's left with, um...
You know, his two senior advisors are a young woman
-by the name of Hope Hicks... -Uh-huh.
-...who's a former junior fashion PR person. -Right.
Um, and Stephen Miller, um, who, as recently as...
Well, not that long ago,
Steve Bannon described him to me
-as... as "my typist." -(laughter)
So, suddenly, I mean, you have the former...
the-the, um... the fashion...
The junior fashion PR person and the typist
are now the senior most advisors
to the president of the United States.
(laughter)
You must forgive me if I'm just shocked
at all of this, because it's-it's...
You almost feel like it's depressing
that he's not a mastermind that is planning all of this.
We are just all dealing with a buffoon
is almost what you're saying.
-Yeah, he's stupid. -(laughter)
(applause and cheering)
I mean, it's why...
And it's one of the most wounding things
that you can say to him, or that people can say about him--
that he's stupid. I mean, his mind... his br...
his head is... his hair is going up right now, and...
-Let-let... -He's also bald, just, uh...
Let-let me ask you this before I let you go.
Um, you were, uh... You were just...
You had an interview recently,
and you were asked about details that maybe weren't in the book,
and one of the things you said has really sparked social media,
and, I guess, the news world at large.
And you insinuated or said out loud
that Donald Trump is possibly having an affair
with someone in The White House.
Like, where-where do you get this from?
-You just have to read the book. -(laughter)
Well, but I... No, but I read...
but I read the book, but I don't...
I don't know where you got that from in the book.
I... Like, there's no part in the book.
I know that... If you said the cheeseburger,
I'd be like, "Yeah, I knew about the cheeseburger."
-(laughter) -But where...?
You just have to somewhat read between the lines,
and then you have to see.
I'm-I'm not going...
Just, the book is...
-It's there. -(laughter)
-But it's not there. -(laughter)
-It is there. -You're really good at selling the book, man.
-Thank you so much for being on the show. -(laughter)
-(applause and cheering) -Fire and Fury available now.
Michael Wolff, everybody.