>>> TT BRAGFT. BRAGG IS NOENL FO
HEROS FOR THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO
TRAIN THERE AND IT’S A SHAME TO
TELL THEM THAT WHAT THEY LEFT
WAS INHERENTLY A RACIST
INSTITUTION BECAUSE OF A NAME.
THAT’S UNACCEPTABLE TO THE
PRESIDENT.
AND RIGHTFULLY SO.
AND I WOULD ALSO NOTE WHERE DO
YOU DRAW THE LINE HERE?
I’M TOLD NO LONGER CAN YOU FIND
ON HBO "GONE WITH THE WIND"
BECAUSE SOMEHOW THAT IS NOW
OFFENSIVE?
WHERE DID YOU DRAW THE LINE?
SHOULD GEORGE WASHINGTON AND
THOMAS JEFFERSON AND JAMES
MADISON BE HISTORY?
>> THAT’S WHITE HOUSE PRESS
SECRETARY KAYLEIGH McENANY
EXPLAINING PRESIDENT TRUMP’S
OPPOSITION TO CALLS FROM SOME TO
RENAME MILITARY BASES NAMED FOR
CONFEDERATE GENERALS.
IT’S A POSITION THAT RUNS
COUNTER TO SOME TOP MILITARY
LEADERS, INCLUDING THE SECRETARY
OF DEFENSE AND THE SECRETARY OF
THE ARMY WHO BOTH SAID THEY ARE
OPEN TO A BIPARTISAN DISCUSSION
OF RENAMING THOSE BASES.
ALSO FORMER U.S. ARMY GENERAL
AND CIA DIRECTOR DAVID PETRAEUS
WROTE IN A NEW OP-ED FOR "THE
ATLANTIC," IT’S TIME TO REMOVE
THE NAMES OF TRAITORS LIKE
BENING AND BRAGG FROM OUR
COUNTRY’S MOST IMPORTANT
MILITARY INSTALLATIONS.
THE LINCOLN PROJECT, A GROUP OF
CONSERVATIVES CRITICAL OF
PRESIDENT TRUMP TOOK ON THIS
ISSUE IN A NEW AD.
>> THE MEN WHO FOLLOWED THIS
FLAG 150 YEARS AGO KNEW WHAT IT
MEANT.
TREASON AGAINST THEIR COUNTRY.
THE DEATH OF THE UNITED STATES.
AMERICA DEFEATED THE MEN WHO
FOLLOWED THAT FLAG.
THOSE WITH HONOR, SURRENDER AND
CAST IT ASIDE FOREVER.
SO WHY DOES IT KEEP SHOWING UP
TODAY AT EVENTS SUPPORTING
DONALD TRUMP?
AND WHY DOES HE CALL THE FOLKS
WHO CARRY IT VERY FINE PEOPLE.
>> I THINK THERE’S BLAME ON BOTH
SIDES, BUT YOU ALSO HAD PEOPLE
THAT WERE VERY FINE PEOPLE.
>> WHAT DOES IT SAY THAT THEY’RE
ALL IN FOR TRUMP?
WHAT DOES IT SAY THAT HE WON’T
CONDEMN THE FLAG OF HATE,
DIVISION AND LOSERS?
FOR US, IT SAYS THIS IS A TIME
FOR CHOOSING.
AMERICA OR TRUMP.
>> JOINING US NOW, ONE OF THE
STRATEGIST BEHIND THE LINCOLN
PROJECT, STEVE SCHMIDT AND "USA
TODAY" OPINION COLUMNIST AND
FORMER SENIOR ADVISER FOR THE
HOUSE OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT
REFORM COMMITTEE, KURT BARDELLA.
HE’S A "MORNING JOE"
CONTRIBUTOR.
STEVE, I WANT TO BEGIN WITH YOU.
NASCAR ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY THAT
THE CONFEDERATE FLAG IS NO
LONGER WELCOME AT ITS EVENTS.
IT WANTS TO SEND A MESSAGE OF
INCLUSIVITY.
ALSO WE SAW JUST LAST NIGHT A
STATUE ALONG MEMORIAL AVENUE IN
RICHMOND, VIRGINIA, OF JEFFERSON
DAVIS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE
CONFEDERACY, TOPPLED.
THIS CAME AFTER LAST WEEK THE
GOVERNOR, RALPH NORTHAM
ANNOUNCED THE STATUE ON THAT
SAME BOULEVARD OF ROBERT E. LEE
WILL BE TAKEN DOWN.
THERE IS A MOVEMENT AWAY FROM
THE CONFEDERACY AT LONG LAST IN
THE EYES OF MANY AMERICANS.
BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS TO BE
ONE OF THE FEW HOLDOUTS.
>> INDEED HE DOES, WILLIE.
AND WE HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL CHOICE
IN NOVEMBER.
IT IS AMERICA OR TRUMP.
WHEN WE LOOK AT THE DIVISIONS
AND TRUMP’S INCITEMENT OF THOSE
DIVISIONS, OVER THESE LAST
MONTHS, IN ORDER FOR US TO MOVE
FORWARD AS A MORE JUST SOCIETY,
IT’S FINALLY TIME FOR THIS
COUNTRY TO PUT DOWN THAT FLAG OF
TREASON, AND THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT
IT WAS.
IT WAS A FLAG FOR A SLAVE NATION
AND AUTOCRACY ON NORTH AMERICAN
SHORES THAT WAS THANKFULLY
DEFEATED AT GREAT COST.
MORE THAN 620,000 AMERICAN LIVES
LOST.
AND THAT FLAG HAS BECOME A
PAINFUL SYMBOL OF RACISM, OF
DIVISION FOR SO MANY IN THIS
COUNTRY.
AND IT HAS NO PLACE IN AMERICAN
LIFE.
IT’S A RACIST SYMBOL.
AND THE PRESIDENT IN DOING HIS
FIRST PUBLIC RALLY ON JUNE 19th,
JUNETEENTH AND DOING IT IN
TULSA, OKLAHOMA, IS DELIBERATE.
IT’S PURPOSEFUL.
IT’S PROVOCATIVE.
TULSA IS ONE OF THE WORST RACE
MASSACRES IN AMERICAN HISTORY
AND JUNE 19th, OF COURSE, IS THE
DAY WHEN WORD FINALLY REACHED
TEXAS AND THAT PART OF THE
COUNTRY THAT SLAVERY HAD BEEN
ABOLISHED.
AND SO JUST TERRIBLE TO SEE
TRUMP DO THAT WITH HIS RALLY
COMING UP IN A FEW WEEKS.
>> SO, STEVE, LET’S TALK ABOUT
THE HISTORY, NOT ONLY OF THE
CONFEDERATE FLAG BUT ALSO THE
HISTORY OF CONFEDERATE GENERALS
LIKE ROBERT E. LEE.
AND I CAN TELL YOU, YOU KNOW, AS
YOU KNOW, I WAS BORN IN GEORGIA,
MOVED TO MISSISSIPPI, LIVED IN
NORTHWEST FLORIDA.
LIVED IN UPSTATE FOR A LITTLE
BIT.
BUT I GREW UP.
THE CONFEDERATE FLAG WAS
EVERYWHERE.
IN MISSISSIPPI, AT OLE MISS
GAMES THEY’D BE WAVING THE
CONFEDERATE FLAG.
THAT EVENTUALLY -- THEY
EVENTUALLY GOT RID OF THAT.
ALABAMA, PEOPLE HAD CONFEDERATE
FLAGS UP IN THE ’80s.
WHITE PEOPLE, INCLUDING MYSELF,
DIDN’T THINK MUCH OF IT.
ROBERT E. LEE WAS REVERED, IF
YOU LOOK AT KEN BURNS’ SERIES ON
THE CIVIL WAR YOU CAN SEE A LOT
OF PREEMINENT HISTORIANS
REVERING ROBERT E. LEE. WEST POINT, YOU ALWAYS HEARD
WEST POINT, YOU ALWAYS HEARD
ROBERTTACTICS WERE
USED.
I WAS TALKING TO STANLEY
CRYSTAL.
HE SAID, OF COURSE, YOU KNOW,
LOOKING BACK, THAT WAS A
MISTAKE.
AND TALK ABOUT OVER TIME AS YOU
HAVE SEEN IT, THE GROWING
AWARENESS, FAR TOO LATE, EVEN
FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME, BUT THE
GROWING AWARENESS OF EXACTLY
WHAT THAT FLAG SYMBOLIZES TO
BLACK AMERICANS.
AND I THINK WE NEED TO
ACKNOWLEDGE IT’S TAKEN, I’D SAY,
PEOPLE LIKE ME.
IT’S TAKEN PEOPLE ACROSS THE
SOUTH, WHITE PEOPLE ACROSS THE
SOUTH WHO THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES
AS BEING PROGRESSIVE.
IT’S TAKEN US FAR TOO LONG TO
LOOK UPON PEOPLE LIKE ROBERT E.
LEE AND LOOK UPON THE SYMBOL OF
THE CONFEDERATE FLAG THE WAY
THAT WE HAVE LOOKED UPON IT OVER
THE PAST 10, 15 YEARS.
>> WELL, A COUPLE OF THINGS,
JOE.
GOOD MORNING.
IN GERMANY WHERE THE SWASTIKA IS
BANNED, NEO-NAZIS CARRY THE
CONFEDERATE FLAG WHEN THEY
MARCH.
IT’S BECOME A SYMBOL OF RACISM.
NOW IF YOU GO BACK IN AMERICAN
HISTORY TO 1865 WHEN THE WAR WON
AND YOU READ LINCOLN’S SECOND
INAUGURAL, HE HAD NO HIGHER
AMBITION THAN TO PUT THE COUNTRY
BACK TOGETHER.
AND PUTTING THE COUNTRY BACK
TOGETHER CAME AT A PRICE.
AND THAT PRICE WAS ABSOLUTION BY
THE NORTH FOR THE SOUTHERN
CAUSE.
THE MYTH THAT IT WAS SOMEHOW
NOBLE, THAT IT WASN’T ABOUT
SLAVERY, THAT THE COUNTRY DIDN’T
BECOME LIKE THE BALKANS WHERE WE
HAD GENERATIONS FIGHTING EACH
OTHER IN GUERRILLA WAR.
AND THE REASON FOR THAT
LITERALLY BEGAN THE DAY OF THE
SURRENDER WHEN JOSHUA LAWRENCE
CHAMBERLAIN, THE GREAT HERO OF
GETTYSBURG, A MAJOR GENERAL IN
THE ARMY, WOUNDED EIGHT TIMES
WAS GIVEN THE HONOR BY GRANT OF
ACCEPTING THE CONFEDERATE
SURRENDER.
AND AS THE CONFEDERATE ARMY
MARCHED BY, CHAMBERLAIN CALLED
THE ARMY TO ATTENTION, PRESENTED
ARMS AND PLAYED "DIXIE."
AND THAT MOVE WAS CELEBRATED
THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AS A
SYMBOL OF HEALING.
BUT THE PROBLEM WAS, WITH ALL OF
IT, WAS THE ENDEMIC RACISM THAT
WAS PART OF THE CONFEDERACY.
AND WHEN WE LOOK AT THE LINCOLN
ASSASSINATION AND THEN
RECONSTRUCTION IN THE RACIAL
TERROR THAT PLAYED OUT IN THE
SOUTH DURING THOSE DECADES AFTER
THE CIVIL WAR, WE HAVE TO
UNDERSTAND TODAY THAT MANY OF
THOSE CONFEDERATE MONUMENTS WERE
PUT UP IN THE 1920s.
THEY WERE POLITICAL STATEMENT
AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR WHEN
BLACKS WHO FOUGHT VALOROUSLY
THOUGHT THEY’D COME HOME TO A
COUNTRY WHERE THEY’D BE MORE
FREE.
SO WE HAVE INDULGED THE MYTH OF
HONOR AROUND THE CONFEDERACY
UNTIL TODAY, UNTIL 2020.
AND NOW IT’S TO RECOGNIZE THIS
FOR WHAT IT IS, A SYMBOL OF
SLAVERY AND RACISM THAT CAUSES
GREAT PAIN TO A LOT OF OUR
FELLOW AMERICANS.
>> AND YOU KNOW, KURT, I DIDN’T
KNOW UNTIL THE CONTROVERSIES
REALLY STARTED CROPPING UP IN A
DRAMATIC WAY THAT ALSO THAT
CONFEDERATE FLAG IN MANY CASES
WASN’T EVEN USED UNTIL THE CIVIL
RIGHTS ERA STARTED TO REALLY --
CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS STARTED TO
ASSERT THEMSELVES IN THE LATE
1950s AND THE EARLY 1960s THAT
PEOPLE STARTED ADOPTING THAT
MORE.
AGAIN, JUST LIKE DONALD TRUMP,
AS SYMBOLISM AGAINST CIVIL
RIGHTS.
>> --
>> WE LOST AUDIO FROM KURT.
WE’LL TRY AND GET BACK TO HIM.
ERIN, LET’S TALK ABOUT THAT AND
HOW THE CONFEDERATE FLAG WAS
USED, REALLY, AS A SYMBOLIC
RESISTANCE TO CIVIL RIGHTS
ADVANCES FOR BLACK AMERICANS IN
THE LATE ’50s AND 1960s AND ALSO
HOW DONALD TRUMP IS ONCE AGAIN
USING IT SYMBOLICALLY TO PROVOKE
A CULTURE WAR.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND I THINK THAT’S EXACTLY THE
POINT, JOE.
WE’VE SEEN, AND SEVERAL OF US
COVERING THIS PRESIDENT AND THIS
ADMINISTRATION ASSUME THAT THE
PRESIDENT WOULD BE RETURNING TO
A RACIAL PLAYBOOK HEADED INTO
THE 2020 ELECTION.
BUT NOW, THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT
HE IS DOING THAT AMID A NATIONAL
RECKONING ON RACE AT THE CENTER
OF WHICH IS AN INDICTMENT OF
INSTITUTIONAL RACISM WHICH MEANS
THAT NO INSTITUTIONS ARE IMMUNE.
AND THAT INCLUDES, YOU KNOW,
THESE CONFEDERATE STATUES WHICH
IN RECENT YEARS,
CHARLOTTESVILLE, THE CHARLESTON
MASSACRE, YOU KNOW, WE’VE TALKED
ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH THESE
CONFEDERATE STATUES.
BUT THE TIME FOR TALK IS OVER
FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.
YOU’RE SEEING PEOPLE TAKING
THESE STATUES DOWN AND SYMBOLS
DOWN ACROSS THE COUNTRY, EVEN AS
THE PRESIDENT IS KIND OF
CONTINUING TO EMBRACE
MAINTAINING THESE CONFEDERATE
STATUES.
THIS PRESIDENT HAS OPENLY
QUESTIONED THE CAUSE OF THE
CIVIL WAR, RIGHT?
SLAVERY MAY NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN
THE REASON.
AND SO I THINK THAT THAT IS A
MESSAGE AS IS POINTED OUT IN THE
AD THAT MAY BE AT ODDS WITH AN
AMERICA THAT’S COMING TO THE
REALIZATION THAT THIS IS NOT WHO
WE ARE, BUT IS THIS WHO WE WANT
TO BE?
THAT IS THE QUESTION THAT SO
MANY PEOPLE ARE HAVING GOING
INTO THIS FALL.
>> ERRIN HAYES, THANKS FOR BEING
WITH US.
WE GREATLY APPRECIATE IT.
STEVE SCHMIDT, KURT BALDELLA,
WE’LL HAVE YOU TOMORROW.
WE’LL MAKE SURE THE SOUND WORKS.
BUT IT WAS GREAT JUST SEEING
YOUR FACE.
>>> THAT DOES IT FOR US THIS