You don't often hear rockstar and economist in the same sentence but I think rockstar
economist is a pretty good way of describing Yanis Varoufakis, the former finance minister
in the Greek Syriza government that came to power last year.
He was in the absolute epicentre in the confrontation between the Greek government and the European
Union. He resigned after the Greek government accepted an austerity memorandum imposed upon
them but he's been far from quiet since. He's set up a movement to try and democratise the
European Union he's got a lot to say.
I think it's a bit of a treat this interview.
Yanis! Great to see you. Here we are in the Union Chapel in London.
Yes, I am feeling almost religious. But it's great to meet you at last.
It's great to finally see you, yeah it's been too long. So finally we made it.
You've called yourself and erratic Marxist.
Yes
What's an erratic Marxist?
Well, it's somebody who's not a consistent Marxist because consistency is perhaps what
undid the beauty of Marx's dialectics.
That's how I understand capitalism, the dialectics or its contradictions. Its capacity to produce
immense wealth and immense poverty at the same time.
The fact that it enslaves not just the worker but also the capitalist. The capitalist is
put into the position of having to do terrible things to prevent himself from becoming a
proletarian, from going bankrupt.
This epic struggle for survival within capitalism, this to me is what is the essential Marx.
Then he got too lured into the mathematics. His search for consistency killed off the
dialectics in my estimation. A great deal of the authoritarianism of the left that led
to the gulags and to the eventual defeat of the Marxist left can be found in that transition
of Marx from a dialectician to somebody who was trying to solve mathematical models and
to find the truth about capitalism in that.
So, for me, being erratic and being consistent as a Marxist is essential to being a Marxist
and to retain the libertarianism and the liberalism of Marx, who loathed the state. He talked
about the withering away of the state, instead of the statism of many Marxists in the 20th century.
Britain now is having a referendum on the European Union. What do you say to those people
who go: 'look at this, we've got to, we've got leave'?
Well, firstly that if Brexit wins you're going to end up with Boris Johnson
Don't, honestly! Please!
in 10 Downing Street.
And the TTIP will come to these shores faster than it will under the European Union. So
it's not going to be a great, magnificent victory for the left and the forces of progress.
The left should never lose site of the history of the 1930s.
After 1929, the left failed to create the coalition with other democrats that was necessary
to prevent the descent into the abyss of the 1930s.
Now, I see such an abyss opening up in front of our eyes in the centre of Europe today
and if it does, we are going to unleash very vulgar and brutal, ultra-rightwing forces
throughout Europe and various xenophobic tendencies that will be turbocharged by the disintegration
of the European Union.
Brexit would speed up the disintegration of the European Union and in the end the only
beneficiaries will be those ultra-nationalists, xenophobes, racists everywhere, including
in Britain.
I too would love to give a bloody nose to Brussels by seeing a result in a referendum
that displeases Mr Juncker and Mrs Merkel and Mr Dijsselbloem and Mr Cameron but this
should not be our criterion.
Our criterion should be a broad, pan-European, democratic movement for preventing the post-modern
1930s from hitting us and future generations.
But the point, in terms of what you've set up, Democracy in Europe Movement. So just
explain, what's it trying to do? It's trying to democratise the European Union, so how
is undemocratic and what would you like to happen in practice?
I feel it in my bones that to all of us we have a duty to band together across borders
throughout Europe to prevent this decline, this degeneration into an ultra-rightwing
cesspool of xenophobia, of deflation, of loss of jobs and this is something we can only
fight at the level of Europe. It cannot be fought at the level of Scotland, of Wales,
of northern England.
This is an attempt, maybe Utopian, to say: 'OK forget that we are Greek, Scottish, English,
German, Italian, let's get together as European progressives and ask ourselves a very simple
question: 'how do we stop this decline?'
What is the enemy? The enemy is the contempt for democratic process in our national capitals
and in Brussels because the contempt that the elite has in London for democracy is only
reinforced by the contempt that Brussels has.
We make decisions in pure opacity. You have no idea what George Osborne says in Ecofin
on behalf of you.
No.
Greek citizens don't have any idea what the Greek finance minister says.
So, our first campaign as DiEM, we want something very simple: to livestream those meetings
so that people know what's going on.
That's only a first step.
You see the problem with these meetings and these councils, as a group, they are not accountable
to anyone. So they all come out and say: 'oh it was the best I could do, it wasn't a very good decision.'
Nobody defends what has been decided and that body cannot be dismissed by anyone and as
Tony Benn said: 'Unless you are able to ask those who make decisions over you, how do
I get rid of you? and get a meaningful answer, you don't have a democracy. So that's what
is important to do in Europe.
We have to do it in order to be able to give more sovereignty and more degrees of freedom
to our national parliaments.
Across the western world we've got huge discontent and it's going in two different directions:
a kind of resurgent left and a xenophobic right.
If another financial crisis happens and we obviously haven't recovered from the one that
happened in this lost decade since Lehmann Brothers came crashing down, as things stand,
do you think that it will be the likes of Le Pen in France, the hard right who are better
prepared, better organised, who will benefit from another financial collapse?
In a nutshell, yes. Especially if Europe allows its centrifugal forces, which are at work,
to tear it apart further. The retreat to the nation state is never going to benefit the left. Never.
Do you think from your experiences, democracy and capitalism are on a collision course effectively?
Always. Always have been but liberalism was essentially capitalism but liberalism was
exactly the opposite of democracy.
Even very progressive liberals like John Stuart Mill disdained the democratic process.
Yeah, contemptuous to the masses.
Were contemptuous to the idea that the demos should rule, which is democracy. The whole
point about constitutions, especially the American constitution, was how to keep the
masses away from power.
A republic, not a democracy. Checks and balances to prevent the...
That's right, and if you come to think of this, now how was democracy... how did liberal
democracy emerge? How was democracy made consistent with liberalism?
Well, there was a steady shift of power from the political sphere to the economic sphere,
with financialisation, with the rise of conglomerates and so on and so forth.
But in Europe we've taken this to its apotheosis. We've created a politics-free-zone in Brussels,
making political decisions. When you depoliticise political decisions, you make them very right
wing, very toxic and extremely inefficient in the end.
Capitalism is being defeated by its own success, having depoliticised politics and having shifted,
effectively turned democracy into an empty shirt, the democratic processes which could
have stabilised capitalism are no longer there. So capitalism is now entering more volatility
and greater propensity for crisis because it was so successful at shifting power away
from the weak.
Greece, what I'd ask you is: was it doomed from the beginning? And the reason for that
is the hope it gave to people like me was the fear it gave to people in Europe. So were
you doomed from the beginning for that reason.
There's no doubt that they wanted to crush us from the beginning for precisely this reason.
There greatest fear was our success because had we succeeded in negotiating and honourable
agreement with the troika, with the Euro group, then the domino effect would happen.
The most pertinent part of your question is was this a foregone conclusion? Was it preordained
that we would lose? Were we doomed from the beginning? No we were not.
If I thought that I would not have tried to create false hope in the minds of fellow Greeks
and Europeans.
I never thought that we would get everything we were asking for. So that was doomed but
when you go into a negotiation you don't expect to get everything.
What I was expecting to get was the minimum that was necessary to stabilise the Greek
economy and end the great depression and that was worth fighting and that was not doomed
from the beginning.
The reason why we became doomed was somewhere along the line, the troika managed to drive
a wedge between the Prime Minister and myself.
Can you explain what happened with Tsipras? You know, in terms of driving you apart? How
did that happen in practice?
Look, I'm not entirely sure. One never knows exactly what has been said when one is not
there, but my feeling and my experience was that there was a combination of fear and hope,
that was given to the Prime Minister by certain high ranking people in the Europe and I'll
be more explicit on this.
They started turning off liquidity to the Greek state through the central bank.
You know, there is nothing easier than a central bank creating a bank run if it wants to.
Imagine how easy it would be for the Bank of England to create a bank run here.
All it has to do is say: 'Oh I think there will be problems with ATMS tomorrow'.
That's it, then there will be problems with the ATMs tomorrow.
So, day by day by day, the treasury was reporting to me and I was reporting to the Prime Minister
that the day was approaching very fast when we wouldn't be able to meet our obligations
to public sector workers, to pensioners, to the IMF that we owed money to, so effectively
we would have to default on someone.
This was a genuine fear that they were inspiring in the Prime Minister and I understand that.
At the same time, I believe that Angela Merkel was, because she's a very suave politician
and she can be extremely charming if she wants to, she was making him feel that as long as
he goes along they will find a solution.
So the fear and the hope, while I was being portrayed as the villain of the piece.
The reason why I had to be singled out and separated from our Prime Minister was because
they knew, I had made that abundantly clear, I was not going to sign on the dotted line
of another bailout loan until and unless the Greek economy was stabilised.
They had no intention of stabilising the Greek economy because that involved political costs
for them that they did not want to have to pay for. So they knew that I would be a major problem.
What's you relationship like now with the Prime Minister?
It's non-existent. We never fell out, we're very comradely, good chemistry, even though
we started disagreeing quite fiercely from April onwards.
Is Syriza now in office but not in power? I think you described whats happened as a
kind of post-modern occupation. It's basically a protectorate imposing policies that it was
elected to oppose.
To put it slightly differently, Tsipras overthrew his own government. It was a coup d'etat and
the government overthrew itself. This is unique and uniquely sad.
When I am talking about a state of occupation, you don't have to take my word for it. Read
the first page of the memorandum of understanding, the text that goes... the memorandum that
accompanies the loan agreement that was signed after I resigned. It's the one I wouldn't sign.
Read the first page. It really is a gem.
Verbatim: 'The Greek authorities commit to agreeing with the institutions.' Full stop.
If I were to sign such a contract with you, that I commit to be in agreement with you
whatever you say, this is like slavery.
Absolutely. Completely one sided.
Second sentence: 'The Greek authorities commit not to introduce any legislation in the Greek
parliament unless they have the approval of the institutions.'
Wow. OK.
The British Empire was far more liberal with the colonies than that.
The troika has the right to say: 'no, veto!'
So it's a completely colonial relationship? Democracy in Greece as we know it, in the
birthplace of democracy as it's often described, has been completely curtailed in any meaningful way?
It's a charade.
A lot of people watching this will be people who desperately want to change the world.
Are you optimistic that finally the left can get its act together and have a vision that
can inspire people in the turbulent years that are to come?
Absolutely, and I'll just back it up with some numbers. When I started talking to Alexis
Tsipras in Greece in 2010-2011, our party of the left scored four percent of the vote
and a few years later we took this four percent and turned it into forty percent.
Now the fact that we had a major setback, even a surrender, is another matter but it
just goes to show that if you keep a consistent line, which is based on reason and hope you
can do that. Especially at a time of crisis.
Bernie Sanders' experience now in the United States... Think about it, he is somebody in
the United States who says 'I'm a socialist' and wins New Hampshire. There aren't that
many socialists in New Hampshire.
Not known for it.
In Alaska? In Washington state?
Epicentres of global socialism as they're known.
That's right, so there is absolutely no excuse for not being hopeful.
What is essential is to put together hope and reason... and we can do it.
That was a pretty fascinating chat, I'm sure you'd agree. So much to say about the nature
of Europe, the European Union but also the sort of world we live in and, you know, how
we get economic justice and if we're going to talk about, you know, not just what we're
against but what we're for, then we need these formidable intellects like Yanis Varoufakis.
If we want a world that's not run as a racket for a tiny elite but run in the interests
of the majority.
But we've got loads more interviews, so do check them out on the screen and we've got
loads of fascinating interviews to come so...