>> AND NOW TO BRANDIS AND ONE OF
THE SUBJECTS OF THE NETFLIX
DOCUMENTARY PRAY AWAY.
>> THANK YOU.
IN 2015, THEN ILLINOIS GOVERNOR
BRUCE RAUNER SIGNED A LAW
BANNING GAY CONVERSION THERAPY
FOR MINORS.
A PRACTICE WHERE COUNSELORS TRY
TO CHANGE A PERSON'S SEXUAL
ORIENTATION FROM GAY TO
STRAIGHT.
THIS PRACTICE HAS BEEN WIDELY
CONDEMNED AS NOT ONLY
INEFFECTIVE BUT HARMFUL BY A
VARIETY OF MEDICAL AND MENTAL
HEALTH ORGANIZATIONS.
OUR NEXT GUEST HAS WRITTEN A
BOOK ABOUT HER EXPERIENCES AS
ONE OF THE FACES OF THE GAY
CONVENTIONER MOST.
AND HER --
MOVEMENT AND HER JOURNEY TO BE
THE OPENLY GAY PERSON BY WHEATON
COLLEGE.
THE BOOK IS CALLED "OUTLOVE: A
QUEER CHRISTIAN SURVIVAL STORY".
SHE WAS FEATURED IN THE NETFLIX
DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE MOVEMENT
CALLED PRAY AWAY.
HERE IS A CLIP.
>> EXGAY LEADERS ARE DOING WHAT
THEY BELIEVE IS THE BEST THING
FOR ALL OF US.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THEY THINK
WHOLE AND HEALTHY MEANS TRYING
TO FIT OURSELVES INTO SOMETHING
WE CAN'T BE.
I WISH THAT THEY WOULD LISTEN TO
US.
AND BELIEVE US.
WHEN WE SAY THAT WE REALLY ARE
SO MUCH HEALTHIER AND HAPPIER
NOW THAT WE ARE NO LONGER A PART
OF THAT.
>> AND JOINING US IS AUTHOR
JULIE RODGERS THANK YOU FOR
JOINING US.
SO LET'S START HERE.
YOU WERE LITERALLY THE POSTER
GIRL FOR THE SO-CALLED THE GAY
CONVERSION THERAPY YOU WERE
SPEAKING AT CONFERENCES, WHICH
WHICH WAS THE OLDEST AND LARGEST
ORGANIZATION IN THAT SO-CALLED
EXGAY MOVEMENT.
TELL US HOW YOU WENT FROM BEING
A PROPONENT TO BEING AN OPPONENT
TO IT NOW?
>> WELL, I THINK WHAT IS
IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS MY
MOM TOOK ME TO THE CONVERSION
THERAPY PROGRAM CALLED LIVING
HOPE MEN INDUSTRIES OUT OF
DALLAS FORTH WORTH.
AND SHE TOOK ME WHEN I WAS 16
YEARS OLD WHEN I CAME OUT.
HE HAD ME START GIVING MY ESCAPE
TESTIMONY WHEN I WAS 17 YEARS
OLD FOR THE DONOR BANQUET AND
NOBODY HAS AN EXGAY TESTIMONY
WHEN THEY ARE 17 YEARS OLD.
I CONTINUED DOING THAT.
HE TOOK ME ON THE ROAD WITH HIM
EVERY TIME HE WOULD SPEAK I
WOULD TELL MY STORY BEFOREHAND
TO ILLUSTRATE HIS POINTS.
SO IT WAS SOMETHING THAT OUR
BRAINS ARE STILL DEVELOPING
UNTIL WE ARE 27 YEARS OLD.
IT WAS IN THE CRUCIAL
DEVELOPMENTAL YEARS THAT I WAS
GOING THROUGH THIS AND BEING A
PROPONENT OF IT AND DURING THAT
TIME I WAS ABLE TO COME INTO MY
OWN SENSE OF SELF, SEE THE HARM
THAT THAT TEACHING WAS CAUSING
AND COME OUT IN A DIFFERENT
PLACE BY THE TIME I WAS MORE
ESTABLISHED AS AN ADULT.
>> LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT A CLIP
WHEN YOU TALKED ABOUT THOSE
CONVERSION THERAPY SESSIONS.
>> IT'S KIND OF LIKE NORMAL
THERAPY APPOINTMENT WHERE YOU
SIT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT YOUR
WEEK AND WHAT IS GOING ON AND
THEN YOU START GETTING DEEPER
INTO THE STUFF THAT IS BOTHERING
YOU.
BUT THERE WAS A LITTLE MORE OF A
CONFESSIONAL ELEMENT.
I FELT LIKE I HAD TO TELL RICKY
EVERYTHING.
EVERYTHING SEXUAL ATTRACTION OR
FEELING OR CRUSH THAT I MIGHT
HAVE.
>> AND SO AFTER CONFESSING YOUR
SO-CALLED SINS WHAT HAPPENED IN
THOSE THERAPY SESSIONS?
WAS THERE PRAYER?
>> IT WAS KIND OF LIKE THE 12
STEP PROGRAM.
THERE WAS SING SONGS AND THERE
WOULD BE A SERMON AND WHEN WE
MAKE THESE GO AROUND AND CONFESS
OUR FAILURES FROM THE WEEK.
THE LEADER WOULD HELP US TRY TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT TRIGGERED IT WHY
WE MAY BE GAVE IN TO A SEXUAL
IMPULSE OR REACHED OUT TO A
CRUSH.
AND THEY WOULD CONNECT IT WITH
LIKE OH, YOUR BOSS BELITTLES YOU
AND THAT IS WHY YOU REACHED OUT
OR YOUR MOM WAS HARSH TO YOU SO
YOU WENT AND LOOKED AT PORN OR
WHATEVER THEN WE WOULD LIKE TRY
TO COMMIT TO YOU KNOW, MORE
PURITY THAT NEXT WEEK AND MORE
ACCOUNTABILITY AND WE BASICALLY
ALL WENT AROUND IN A CIRCLE AND
DID THAT EVERY SINGLE WEEK FOR
YEARS.
>> OK.
FAST FORWARDING A LITTLE BIT YOU
WERE THE FIRST OPENLY GAY PERSON
TO BE HIRED BY A CHRISTIAN
COLLEGE HERE IN ILLINOIS.
YOU TOOK WHEATON COLLEGE'S
PLEDGOR A COMMUNITY COVENANT TO
REMAIN CELIBATE AND IT'S THE
SAME PLEDGE THAT LGBTQ STUDENTS
AND STAFF ALL TAKE.
BUT BY THEN YOU WERE AN
OUTCRIESIAN BLOGGER WHEN THEY
REACHED OUT TO MINISTER TO THE
GROWING GROUP OF LGBTQ STUDENTS
THERE AS AN OUT PERSON WHY DID
YOU TAKE THE JOB WHEN IT CAME
ALONG WITH THAT PLEDGE?
>> I TOOK THE JOB BECAUSE FIRST
I REALLY CARED ABOUT STUDENTS.
THEY ARE ALL THE QUEER STUDENTS
ON CAMPUS WHO I KNEW DID NOT
HAVE ANYBODY THAT COULD
EMPATHIZE WITH THEM AND ADVOCATE
FOR THEM.
AND I REALLY SAW AN OPPORTUNITY
TO CREATE A SAFE PLACE FOR THEM.
SO TO BEGIN TO IMAGINE A PAUSE
OF THE FUTURE IN THE SAFE
COMMUNITIES.
AND I ALSO THOUGHT MAYBE THESE
COMMUNITIES ARE CHANGING MORE
PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO COME OUT
AND SAY IN THE CHRISTIAN
COMMUNITIES.
WE HAVE THE INTERNET NOW SO
PEOPLE CAN FOLLOW OUR JOURNEYS
AND SEE THAT WE DON'T BITE THAT
WE ARE NOT MONSTERS.
AND MAYBE THEY ARE COMING
AROUND.
I HAD FAITH THAT THEY MIGHT BE
OPENING UP MORE THAN THEY WERE
READY TO OPEN UP WHEN THEY
OFFERED ME THE JOB.
>> AND WE KNOW LATER ON YOU WERE
FORCED TO RESIGN AFTER THE
SCHOOL RECEIVED SOME PRESSURE
FROM CONSERVATIVES.
TELL US ABOUT WRITING YOUR BOOK
OUT LOVE WAS THIS THERAPEUTIC?
WERE YOU GOING FOR A TALE ABOUT
NOT BEING TRUE TO YOURSELF?
>> I WANTED PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND
WHAT HAPPENED.
I KNOW HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WHO
ARE QUEERS WHO GREW UP IN FAITH
COMMUNITIES AND I'VE SEEN
FIRSTHAND THE DAMAGE THAT
TEACHING CAUSES.
THAT YOU KNOW, THE SELF HARM,
THE SUICIDAL IDENTIFIATION AND I
THOUGHT IF CONSERVATIVE
CHRISTIANS KNEW HOW HARMFUL THIS
TEACHING IS, THEN THEY WOULD BE
MOVED TO CHANGE.
AND I WANTED THEM TO SEE HOW
HARD WE TRY AND WE REALLY WANT
TO BE GOOD AND THAT WE'RE NOT
JUST OUT TO BE LIKE THESE
DEBAUCHEROUS REBELS THAT WE ARE
EARNEST AND I WANTED THEM TO GET
A GLIMPSE INTO THE HEART OF
SOMEBODY LIKE ME AND HOPE MAYBE
THEY'LL BE MOVED TO COMPASSION
EN EMBRACE US.
>> THE FILM SHOWS EXODUS SPECIAL
INTERNATIONAL WHO CLOSED IN
2013, 20 STATES BANNED
CONVERSION THERAPY ACCORDING TO
THE TREVOR PROJECT, THIS PROJECT
THE PRACTICE OF CON VERY,
THERAPY IS THAT STILL GOING
STRONG?
>> WHAT IS IMPORTANT TO
UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE BANS THEY
ARE IMPORTANT BUT THEY ONLY
APPLY TO LICENSED MENTAL HEALTH
PROFESSIONALS.
SO THEY DON'T APPLY TO
ORGANIZATIONS LIKE LIVING HOPE
WHICH IS WHERE I WAS IN CON
VERY, THERAPY STILL ALIVE AND
THRIVING TODAY.
RICKY IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
SPEAKS TO MEGA CHURCHES WITH
TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ALL
OVER THE WORLD AND THEY HAVE 100
PEOPLE IN THE SUPPORT GROUPS
EVERY WEEK AND 10,000 ON THE
ON-LINE FORUMS.
NO BAN WILL EVER TOUCH THOSE
ORGANIZATIONS BECAUSE OF THE
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM LAWS AND THAT
IS WHY WE NEED A STRATEGY THAT
BOTH DOES MAKE SURE THAT IT
SPANS THROUGH MENTAL HEALTH
PRACTITIONERS BUT ALSO CHANGING
HEARTS AND MINDS IN THE
COMMUNITIES WHERE IT'S MOST
PROMINENT.
>> AND WE ARE JUST ABOUT OUT OF
TIME WHAT DO YOU WANT PEOPLE TO
TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR BOOK,
ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE?
>> I WANT THEM TO KNOW THAT
THERE IS A POSITIVE FUTURE
AWAITING THEM.
THAT THEY DON'T NEED TO COME OUT
IF IT'S NOT SAFE.
BUT I WANT THEM TO KNOW THAT
EVENTUALLY IF THEY GET TO THE
PLACE WHERE THEY CAN TELL THE
TRUTH TO A FEW SAFE PEOPLE THEY
WILL FIND ALL KINDS OF
COMMUNITIES WHO WILL
ENTHUSIASTICALLY EMBRACE THEM
AND SAFE COMMUNITIES, AND
CHRISTIAN COMMUNITIES IF THEY
WANT TO HOLD ON TO THE FAITH
THAT WILL CELEBRATE THEM AND
LOVE THEM THE WAY THEY ARE.
>> JULIE RODGERS THANK YOU FOR
JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU.
>> AGAIN, HER BOOK IS CALLED