Fox Corporation Chairman Rupert Murdoch.
Democratic leader
Senator Chuck
Schumer and Congressman
Hakeem Jeffries are demanding that Fox
stop, quote,
spreading false election
narratives, unquote.
Jeffries spoke about this earlier today.
Perhaps it's time
for America
to be able to move past that big lie.
And an important step
would be those
who know it was a big lie
to publicly repudiated.
This demand comes
in the wake of those damaging,
damning depositions and communications
and Dominion's lawsuit
against Fox
revealing the top posts and executives
knowingly aired and even spoke.
Election lies on the network
knowing they were lies.
Let's discuss
with former Democratic South
Carolina state
representative Bakari Sellers
along with the editor
in chief of The Dispatch, Jonah Goldberg.
We should note that Jonah was subpoenaed
and deposed by Dominion
in this lawsuit against Fox,
and we're not going to
ask him about that.
He can't talk about it.
But Jonah, let me start with you.
You can't talk about your deposition,
but you can talk about Rupert Murdoch's.
You were with Fox for many years.
Were you surprised by all the
candor and admissions that, yes,
we were spreading lies
and we knew it was lies,
but we did it
because of money and ratings
Yeah.
I mean, there's
this weird
dichotomy between shock and surprise.
I'm not really surprised,
but Rupert Murdoch.
Rupert Murdoch is a canny, smart player.
And when he just
baldly says
this wasn't about red or blue,
this was about green,
talking about why he put Mike
Lindell the pillow guy back on air,
because he's a big advertiser.
You can almost hear his,
you know,
Rupert's lawyers
taking out the black tar heroin and
and tightening in the
the center on their arms.
I mean, like like it's amazing
that he would say
some of these things
and not try to obfuscate
or dodge the Question
Time and time again,
both in the text messages
and in the depositions,
you have senior Fox executives
just saying the quiet part out loud over
and over again.
And it's really
it's it's really compelling,
even if there's, you know,
more that we need to know
from the Dominion response because,
you know, again,
this is essentially
a prosecutor is brief,
but it's very hard
not to see
this is as overwhelmingly persuasive
on the thrust of it.
So, Bakari, play a little game with me.
You'll like it if MSNBC is chair
admitted under oath
that their hosts
lied to their progressive viewers
just for ratings about a topic
that had caused
a deadly riot
at the Capitol
against a Republican president.
What do you think
the response would be by Fox
or by Republican members of Congress?
Oh, they would
threaten to burn it completely down.
I mean,
I think that we all know
what that response would be.
And it's unique
that you ask that question.
And I think it's a very good question
because we now know that
many of the hosts
over at Fox News, the Tucker Carlson,
the Sean Hannity,
they get the leeway to say
whatever
they want to say, whether or not
it has veracity or not.
It's it's
something that I would argue
that Jake Tapper doesn't have
is something I would argue
that Joy Reid doesn't have,
that you just don't have that leeway.
And Jake, in your case specifically,
you don't have
that want
to go out there and mislead viewers
the way that we now know
Fox News host and contributors did.
And I think that's a fundamental problem.
And I think that.
And Jonah knows Rupert Murdoch
better than I don't know him at all.
He probably doesn't
know me from a can of paint.
But I would also go a step
further and argue that
Rupert
Murdoch has
not only tarnished
and damaged his legacy,
but he's also done a great deal of damage
to democracy throughout the world.
Or democracies throughout the world,
because these lies
fundamentally erode what we believe
our democracy to be.
And the fact that he had his soldiers
and lieutenants carrying it out
should be a problem.
But no, I don't believe any host to CNN
or any host at MSNBC
particularly can get away
with the same things
that Tucker and Sean get away
with, particularly with these lies.
So, Jonah, there's now attention
turning toward the
Fox board of directors.
One of its members,
former Republican House Speaker
Paul Ryan, is trying to defend
his role
behind the scenes in a new interview with
Charlie Sykes. Take a listen.
If you
are on the board of
directors of a company
that is pumping toxic sludge
racism, disinformation
and attacks on democracy,
if you don't stand up now,
then when I do,
I have a responsibility off
my opinion and perspective.
And I do that.
But I don't go on and TV and do it right.
And so I have a response to you.
I do. I do.
So I offer my perspective in my opinion.
Often
I think Fox is a big
part of the constellation.
The conservative movement
isn't really a solution or the problem.
Oh, no.
I think it's going to have to be
a part of the solution
if we're going to solve the problem.
The conservative movement
What do you think, Jonah, is Fox?
Obviously, they disagree.
Is he part of the problem
or part is Fox part of the problem
or part of the solution
when it comes to conservatives?
Yeah.
I mean,
I had this very conversation
with Paul Ryan myself.
Full disclosure, he's a friend of mine.
And I got to say,
I disagree with Paul.
And to a certain extent,
insofar as I think
turning the ship around.
Look, I was at Fox News for 12 years.
I will still defend to this day.
A lot of the people on in the news
division who,
you know, look we know from these filings
we're trying to push back on this,
which is why Tucker
and some people wanted to get them fired
because they were fact-checking
the nonsense
that was coming from the opinion side
and that was
what was pissing off the executives.
So I mean I think it's a
more nuanced problem
than a lot of people
want it to be at the same time.
I think Paul is very sincere and honest
when he says that he's counseled this
from the get go, that
that that this stuff
is poisonous to the Fox brand.
It's poisonous to conservatism.
I just think what the current leadership
at Fox, particularly Susan Scott,
the CEO who basically just gave the booze
and car keys to the fastest drivers,
is not
is not currently situated
to make that transition.
But yeah,
if if
if the conservative movement
and the Republican Party
can't turn Fox around
and make it a constructive part
of American discourse
and democracy in journalism,
then it's bad for the country,
but it's also bad for conservatism.
And I think
Paul Paul Ryan,
at the end of the day, cares a lot.
You know, he's a party guy.
He is a movement conservative.
He cares about those causes
and those institutions.
I just think that
the task cut out for him to institute
reforms from within is is Herculean.
McCarthy Last thoughts
No, I'm just admiring
Jonah's very vivid
analogies that he's using the day.
But I actually agree
I wholeheartedly agree with with what
Paul Ryan said,
especially when it comes to the fact
that if
the conservative movement
is going to change,
if they're going to root out
these cancers,
then Fox is going to be
a big part of that.
The question I have, though,
is can they do that
under the leadership of Rupert Murdoch?
Can they do that
under the current leadership?
I think that's the largest question
that they're reading, those depositions.
And Jonah, thanks so much.
Appreciate both of you.