>>> WE NEED A NEW TOOL WE DO NOT HAVE BECAUSE SO FAR THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE NUMBER OF
PATIENTS, NUMBER OF BED, IS
SOMETHING TOTALLY NEW FOR US,
OKAY?
OKAY? AND NOT ONLY FOR US, ALL THE
COUNTRY WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH
THIS.
THIS. BUT IT’S DIFFICULT TO TELL
PEOPLE THAT IF YOU ARE 80 YOU
WILL NEVER HAVE THE ICU BED.
>> OF COURSE.
>> BUT, SO FAR IF YOU HAVE NOT
THE OPPORTUNITY TO BUILD A NEW
HOSPITAL WITH 1,000 BED SUCH AS
IN CHINA, WE NEED THIS TERRIBLE
TOOL BECAUSE THIS IS A TOOL OF
SELECTION.
SELECTION. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. OF WHO LIVES AND WHO DIES.
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. >>> THIS IS THE CRITICAL
SITUATION IN ITALY, THE COUNTRY
OUR VICE PRESIDENT AND DR. FAUCI
SAID THAT WE ARE NOW MOST
COMPARABLE TO, ITALY, WHERE MORE
THAN 13,000 PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY
DIED, ITALY, WHERE 20% OF THE
COUNTRY’S HEALTH CARE
PROFESSIONALS HAVE ALREADY BEEN
INFECTED WITH COVID.
ITALY WHERE SCENES OF PEOPLE
GETTING TAKEN TO HOSPITALS ARE
DESCRIBED LIKE THIS, ON A
SATURDAY RED CROSS VOLUNTEER
FOUND HERSELF IN THE BEDROOM OF
A 90-YEAR-OLD MAN.
SHE ASKED HIS TWO GRANDDAUGHTERS
IF HE HAD CONTACT WITH ANYONE
WITH THE CORONAVIRUS.
YES, THEY SAID, THEIR FATHER WHO
HAD DIED ON WEDNESDAY.
THEIR GRANDMOTHER HAD BEEN TAKEN
AWAY ON FRIDAY AND WAS IN
CRITICAL CONDITION.
CRITICAL CONDITION. THEY WEREN’T CRYING, SHE SAID,
BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T HAVE ANY
TEARS LEFT.
TEARS LEFT. ITALY, WHICH HAS BEEN ON A
NATIONWIDE LOCKDOWN SINCE MARCH
10 AND JUST EXTENDED IT TO APRIL
13.
13. ITALY, WHERE THE CURVE MAY NOW
FINALLY BE FLATTENING.
NUMBERS COMING IN THIS WEEK
SUGGEST THE PACE OF NEW CASES IS
SLOWING.
SLOWING. BUT LASTLY, ITALY WHERE THE
COUNTRY’S DEATH RATE MAY
ACTUALLY BE MUCH HIGHER BECAUSE
DEATHS OUTSIDE OF HOSPITALS ARE
NOT BEING REPORTED.
IS THIS WHAT WE ARE IN FOR?
JOINING OUR CONVERSATION, ROME
BUREAU CHIEF FOR "THE NEW YORK
TIMES," JASON HOROWITZ.
RON AND DR. WEN ARE BOTH BACK.
JASON, I READ YOUR STORIES
USUALLY IN TEARS BUT DID IT
STRIKE YOU AS IT STRUCK ME AS
REMARKABLE TO HEAR THE VICE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
SAY THAT WE ARE AT THIS POINT
MOST LIKE ITALY?
>> IN A CERTAIN SENSE IT’S NOT
SURPRISING BECAUSE ITALY IS THE
WESTERN DEMOCRACY THAT’S SORT OF
BEEN AT THE VAN GUARD OF THIS.
REALLY IT BROKE OUT AT THE END
OF FEBRUARY, FEBRUARY 23 WHEN
THEY STARTED CLOSING TOWNS, AND
I THINK IT WAS THE SORT OF THING
THAT ITALY WAS ALSO SORT OF
GUILTY OF THIS.
IT LOOKED TO CHINA AND THOUGHT
THAT ISN’T US, THAT’S NOT GOING
TO HAPPEN TO US, AND IN A
SIMILAR WAY THE REST OF EUROPE
AND THE UNITED STATES LOOKED AT
ITALY AND THOUGHT THAT’S NOT
GOING TO HAPPEN TO US EITHER.
IT’S HAPPENING EVERYWHERE
BECAUSE THIS VIRUS DOESN’T CARE
WHAT NATIONALITY YOU ARE.
>> LET ME READ SOME MORE OF YOUR
REPORTING WHICH HAS BEEN
REMARKABLE.
REMARKABLE. YOU WROTE THIS, SO MANY PEOPLE
ARE DYING SO QUICKLY, THE
HOSPITAL, MORTUARIES AND FUNERAL
WORKERS CANNOT KEEP UP.
WE TAKE THE DEAD FROM MORNING
UNTIL NIGHT ONE AFTER THE OTHER
CONSTANTLY, SAID VONN DA -- I’M
GOING TO BOTCH THE NAME -- WHO
RUNS ONE OF THE LAST FUNERAL
HOMES TO REMAIN OPEN.
OTHERS HAVE CLOSED AS A RESULT
OF SICK FUNERAL DIRECTORS, SOME
IN INSEN SIEVE CARE.
USUALLY WE HONOR THE DEAD.
NOW IT’S LIKE A WAR AND WE
COLLECT THE VICTIMS.
WHAT IS REPORTING THIS STORY
LIKE, JASON?
LIKE, JASON? >> IT’S SAD.
IT’S A SAD STORY.
IT’S ABOUT PEOPLE LOSING THEIR
GRANDPARENTS BASICALLY THE
ENTIRE -- NOT THE ENTIRE NORTH
BUT A GOOD SECTION OF THE NORTH
OF ITALY IS WALLOPED WITH THIS
AND THAT MEANS THAT -- AND SINCE
THIS VIRUS HITS ELDERLY PEOPLE
VERY HARD AND ITALY IS THE
SECOND OLDEST COUNTRY IN THE
WORLD ON AVERAGE AFTER JAPAN, SO
YOU’RE HAVING A LOT OF PEOPLE
DIE.
DIE. ITALIANS ARE PEOPLE WHO FEEL
VERY CONNECTED TO THEIR OLDER
GENERATIONS.
GENERATIONS. THEY REALLY CARE ABOUT THEIR
GRANDPARENTS AND THEY ON LIVEFTE
WITH THEM.
WITH THEM. YOU’RE JUST TALKING TO PEOPLE
WHO ARE LOSING THE PEOPLE
CLOSEST TO THEM AND THEY CAN’T
DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
SO IT’S A SAD STORY OBVIOUSLY.
>> IT’S A VERY SAD STORY.
RON, IT JUMPED OUT AT ME TO HEAR
VICE PRESIDENT PENCE LET IT SLIP
OUT THAT BASED ON THE SPREAD AND
BASED ON THE MODELS WE HEAR LOOK
MOST LIKE ITALY BECAUSE IF YOU
TAKE DONALD TRUMP’S PUBLIC
UTTERANCES AND I DON’T KNOW
WHAT’S IN HIS HEAD OR HIS HEART,
HE WASN’T TALKING LIKE THAT’S
WHERE HE SAW THE COUNTRY HE
LEADS HEADING AS RECENTLY AS A
WEEK AGO.
WEEK AGO. >> YEAH, NICOLLE, OF COURSE IT
WOULD BE AN EVEN MORE
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE IF OUR
NUMBER OF FATALITIES MATCHED
ITALY BECAUSE AS JASON ALLUDED
TO, THE MEDIAN AGE IS ITALY IS
TEN YEARS OLDER THAN IN THE
UNITED STATES.
UNITED STATES. SO WE WOULD EXPECT THE DEATH
RATE IN ITALY TO BE
SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER THAN IT IS
IN THE UNITED STATES.
IF WE’RE ON A PATH TO MATCH
ITALY’S DEATH RATE THAT’S AN
EVEN MORE CATASTROPHIC FAILURE
HERE THAN IT WAS IN ITALY.
SO I DON’T THINK IT’S A GOOD
MODEL FOR US.
IT’S NOT WHERE WE SHOULD BE.
WE ALSO HAD MORE WARNING THAN
ITALY HAD.
ITALY HAD. WE HAD THE EXAMPLE OF ITALY.
SO THERE’S REALLY EVEN --
THERE’S NO EXCUSE FOR THE WAY IT
GOT IN ITALY AND EVEN LESS
EXCUSE FOR WHAT’S HAPPENED HERE
WITH THAT KIND OF HEADS UP, THAT
KIND OF WARNING THAT WE SHOULD
HAVE BEEN TAKING THE BOLD ACTION
ON TESTING, PRODUCING GEAR AND
EQUIPMENT, ON ISOLATING PEOPLE
LONG BEFORE WE DID.
WE’RE NOW ON A VERY BAD TRACK
BECAUSE WE DIDN’T.
>> DR. WEN, SOMETHING THAT JASON
JUST SAID IS THAT ONE OF THE
FAILURES IN ITALY WAS THAT THEY
WERE SLOW TO LOCK THE COUNTRY
DOWN.
DOWN. WE STILL DON’T HAVE A UNIFORM
NATIONWIDE QUARANTINE AND I
THINK ONE GOVERNOR SAID TODAY, I
DIDN’T EVEN KNOW THAT
CORONAVIRUS COULD SPREAD FROM
ASYMPTOMATIC PEOPLE.
ASYMPTOMATIC PEOPLE. IS IT OUR RESPONSE, OUR SLOW
RESPONSE AND OUR LACK OF TESTING
THAT MAKES US LIKE ITALY, OR IS
IT SOMETHING ABOUT THE AGE AND
THE PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS OF
OUR POPULATION?
OUR POPULATION? WHAT MAKES VICE PRESIDENT PENCE
AND ANTHONY FAUCI SAY THAT WE
ARE ITALY?
ARE ITALY? >> I THINK WHAT MAKES THEM SAY
THAT WE’RE LIKE ITALY IS THE TRA
JOEKTRY RY
JOEKTRY RY JEKTRY OF WHERE WE’RE GOING
WHICH IS SOBERING.
EVEN IN THE BEST CASE ESTIMATES
WE’RE TALKING 100,000 TO 200,000
PEOPLE DEAD IN THE U.S. IN THE
COMING MONTHS FROM COVID-19
WHICH IS THE BEST CASE SCENARIO
IF WE DO THINGS EXACTLY RIGHT
WHICH WE’RE NOT.
YOU’RE RIGHT, NICOLLE, WE DON’T
HAVE A NATIONAL COORDINATED
STRATEGY.
STRATEGY. WE TALKED EARLIER ABOUT THE
PROBLEMS WITH OUR HEALTH CARE
SYSTEMS AND THE LACK OF TESTING
BUT WE ALSO HAVE A HUGE ISSUE
THAT WE AS A COUNTRY ARE NOT
UNIFORM WITH ASKING PEOPLE TO DO
THE ONE THING, THE ONE THING
THAT WILL REDUCE THE RATE OF
TRANSMISSION WHICH IS TO STAY AT
HOME.
HOME. IT’S UNBELIEVABLE TO ME THAT
THERE’S STILL THAT GOVERNOR WHO
IS SAYING HE DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT
ASYMPTOMATIC TRANSMISSION.
ASYMPTOMATIC TRANSMISSION. IT’S UNBELIEVABLE THAT THERE ARE
STILL GOVERNORS WHO ARE LOOKING
AT WHAT’S HAPPENING IN NEW YORK,
WHAT’S HAPPENING -- WHAT’S GOING
TO BE HAPPENING IN FLORIDA,
LOUISIANA, MICHIGAN AND
EVERYWHERE AND NOT THINKING
THAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN TO ME
TOO.
TOO. WHAT ARE WE WAITING FOR?
ARE WE WAITING FOR NUMBERS TO GO
UP ALSO IN EVERY STATE?
BECAUSE BY THAT POINT IT’S GOING
TO BE TOO LATE.
IT WILL BE INEVITABLE THEN BUT
IT’S NOT INEVITABLE NOW AND I
HOPE THAT’S THE TAKEAWAY FROM IT
ALL, THAT THERE IS SOMETHING
THAT WE CAN DO RIGHT NOW TO
FLATTEN THAT CURVE.
WE STILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO
NOT MAKE US ON THE TRAJECTORY OF
ITALY, BUT THAT TAKES
COORDINATED ACTION BY THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW.
>> JASON, I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE
LAST WORD.
LAST WORD. BECAUSE ITALY, IF THAT’S WHERE
WE’RE HEADING, IS A FEW WEEKS
AHEAD OF US, TELL ME WHAT’S
HAPPENING NOW AND FOR THE PEOPLE
THAT LOOK TO THE FUTURE, HOW DO
THEY SEE THE NEXT FEW WEEKS
PLAYING OUT FOR THAT COUNTRY?
>> I THINK ONE THING THAT’S
REALLY IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT IS
THAT AMERICA IS LIKE ITALY IN
THAT ALSO IT’S LIKE A DEMOCRACY.
IT’S NOT LIKE CHINA.
YOU CAN’T CLOSE EVERYTHING DOWN.
THAT’S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
ITALY HAS SHOWN IS NOT EASY AND
IT’S BEEN AN INCREMENTAL
CLOSEDOWN AND IN A WAY IT WOULD
HAVE BEEN BETTER IF THEY CLOSE
IT DOWN EARLIER AND THERE ARE
FIGHTS BETWEEN THE CENTRAL
GOVERNMENT AND THE GOVERNORS
HERE TOO.
HERE TOO. BUT I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT
THING HERE THAT EVERYONE SORT OF
GETS NOW IS THAT YOU HAVE TO
STAY HOME, AND THAT IF YOU DON’T
STAY HOME, YOU ARE ENDANGERING
MAYBE NOT YOURSELF, MAYBE YOU’RE
HEALTHY, MAYBE YOU’RE IN YOUR
30s BUT YOU COULD BE A CARRIER.
WE STILL DON’T KNOW EXACTLY THE
CONTAGION RATE OF PEOPLE WITHOUT
SYMPTOMS.
SYMPTOMS. WE STILL DON’T KNOW WHAT THE
IMMUNITY LEVELS OF PEOPLE WHO
HAVE SURVIVED THIS ARE.
THERE’S SO MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT
THE DANGER THAT PEOPLE POSE TO
THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS THAT
REALLY THE SAFEST THING IS JUST
TO STAY HOME.
LEADERS WILL BALANCE THE
QUESTIONS OF ECONOMY AND
INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, BUT REALLY IT
SEEMS LIKE WHAT PEOPLE HERE
UNDERSTAND NOW AND I THINK IN
THE UNITED STATES THEY’LL
EVENTUALLY UNDERSTAND IT AS WE