Gara you've been to South Africa half a dozen times
to inspect Atlantic grantees
what's changed ?
Well I think that one of the things that's changed is that the you have a new leadership
in the country Jacob Zuma about whom many people were nervous but who's put together a pretty
good government
including a health minister that is really in sync with where we've been trying to go at Atlantic
supporting a
comprehensive approach to the country's health problems and to the training of nurses a
really diligent dedicated guy and coming after years of AIDS denialism where our grantees
were having to fight the government and to push the government to be the government's
partners in this effort is a big change and obviously a very welcome change.
The other big impression I have as a frequent visitor to the country
is um... what's happening in the built environment that we've invested in I mean it's it's very
very tangible so we went to the University of the Western Cape
an historically disadvantaged institution that Atlantic for a number of years has been
helping to rise to the first ranks it was really uh... impressive almost moving
to be in the buildings that I had seen in earlier stages when they were holes in the ground
or when they were just under construction the life sciences building which is supposed
to be
uh... really one of the most impressive academic buildings in the whole African continent
and the school of public health, to see those
uh... thriving teeming with students, have research going on, have convenings taking
place there
attracting as first-ranked buildings do
uh...
more significant scholars and students and funding and government support
is really really gratifying
and one of the things I learned in talking to Brian O'connell a very dynamic rector
of the institution
uh... was that Atlantic's investment in the University of the Western Cape apparently showed
the government
uh... the importance of public-private partnerships in higher education and lead to not only uh...
matching government funding for U W_C_ but also to higher education generally in the
country, it was a model that we had done over the years in Ireland with tremendous success
in building up the higher education sector in Ireland and the same thing seems to be happening
in South Africa flowing from the investments that Atlantic made in some of these terrific uh...
buildings and facilities. So
South Africa has a remarkably
modern
and
human rights oriented constitution
so far so good
How well is it being implemented?
Well the South African constitution is a model for the world I mean in many respects it
uh... it improves upon the U_S_ constitution because it has
for instance very strong support for lesbian and gay rights and for economic and social rights
so it's a constitution that
I think almost everyone in the world would aspire to .
As in most countries there's a gap between the promise and the practice I mean they have a very
good system for
enforcing rights, they have a terrific supreme court , a constitutional court they call it,
uh... and a great bar that is...
very experienced in protecting rights so grantees of ours like the Legal Resource Center or what
used to be called the AIDS Law Project
are really terrific in pressing the claims of disadvantaged people before the court
uh... I was surprised when I got to Atlantic to find that we had such an emphasis is we
have had on lesbian and gay rights because the constitution is so protective
but I learned in coming to South Africa over the years that their facts on the ground are
very different that there's a lot of discrimination against gay men and lesbians, a lot
of violence and homophobia and it's very important for us to have been supporting organizations
to
narrow the gap between the promise to practice. Right now I think uh... there's a lot of really
creative interesting work being done by our grantees on economic and social rights
like housing, unemployment and health
uh... and we had a great conversation with a bunch of those groups um... on the ground
I think despite
some progress on health for instance
and housing
uh... there's a lot of uh... anger and uh... unhappiness at the community level particularly
in some of the poorest communities we visited the informal settlements in townships where
a great many people in this country with a forty percent unemployment rate live
Is that what people meant when they talked about popcorn protests ?
Yes exactly there's a lot of protests over service delivery you know people just rising
up spontaneously to be very unhappy that the electricity is off or the water isn't being delivered or that
jobs or housing aren't coming forward, where that'll go in this country is a little hard to say
you know there is
a South Africa like a lot of countries
uh... did very well economically in the last ten or fifteen years
certainly since the end of apartheid there a lot of people have become very wealthy and the country has developed
uh... into a much greater economic power but that hasn't really affected all the people
on the ground that most are most uh... effected by economic inequality
and there's increasing frustration I think with the failure of the political leadership
of the country
to deliver on some of those promises and um... what will happen in the next couple of years
on that, how responsive the government will be to
I'm going to use a metaphor that is probably out of whack but kind of tea party-like protests
that are coming up in the townships from people who are unhappy about the lack of services how the
government responds to that will be a very telling moment for South Africa.
So Jack, it was terrific to have you along on the trip, I've been to South Africa as you say
about a half a dozen times but you're a first-time visitor so I
I want to hear what some of your strongest impressions were .
I guess two,
the first was, I would call it, goodwill
or unity
almost everywhere we went
to my growing surprise
uh... there was such
goodwill on the part of
interracial goodwill
uh... people work together shop together walk together
uh... restaurants, uh there didn't seem to be
at least
to a newcomer's eyes
any overt discrimination
or hostility or
a sense of sourness. A very good example is how the whole country
pulled together
for the two thousand ten world cup
they built beautiful stadia around the country
including one in
Johannesburg that looks like a giant calabash
and the whole country took great pride
in presenting itself to the world
as a newly constituted
uh... democracy.
We had a wonderful meeting with Bishop Tutu that day, you know in his office in the kind of
strip mall in Cape Town
uh... it was a terrific meeting but one of things that both of us were struck by is when he
said this is a country if we can build stadiums, world class stadiums
you know, can't we deliver housing for our people .
Well Soweto
is the
sort of a global synonym for
jam-packed
awful hovel slums
when we
spent a long time touring Soweto I was astonished to
discover that
what contrasts there were even within
this area that might house a million people
uh... yes there were
thousands of little hovels with no windows or doors and kids playing in the mud
but there were also
very attractive houses with two-car garages
and gardens
uh... it's a reflection of how far South Africa has come
not to overstate it, there's still
uh...a remarkable amount of poverty and it's said that South Africa has the largest income gap
of any country in the world
but the signs of black progress
are palpable .
Well Jack, it was a lot of fun to travel with you and to have another set of eyes and ears you
know with me in South Africa I have the impression that like a lot of people who visit South
Africa for the first time as you did
uh you've kind of fallen in love with the country a little bit and I know that the staff and
the grantees there really were taken with you and were scheming with
for ways to get you back there. Well I was thrilled
and to see
what I was saying before about unity was really evident in our staff, Nobayeni Dladla
who's the new country director
white and black members of the staff got along absolutely interchangeably and comfortably
uh... i was impressed by how much they knew, how they could answer almost every question
so it was a joy in every respect .