YOU KNOW, HIGHBROW DUKES OF
HAZARD SENSIBILITY.
>>> WE’RE GOING TO GET TO THE
PRINCETON MOVE IN A MOMENT.
RIGHT NOW IT SEEMS APPROPRIATE
TO DIVE INTO EDDIE’S EXTREMELY
TIMELY NEW BOOK ENTITLED, "BEGIN
AGAIN," OFFICIALLY OUT TOMORROW.
EDDIE, THAT YOU CAN TO US ABOUT
THE BOOK, IF YOU COULD.
WHY JAMES BALDWIN, THE
INSPIRATION FOR IT, AND WHY NOW?
>> WELL, THANK YOU, MIKA.
I’VE BEEN READING AND THINKING
ABOUT JAMES BALDWIN FOR ALMOST
30 YEARS NOW.
BALDWIN HAS HAUNTED MY THOUGHTS,
HOW TO THINK ABOUT AMERICA.
I THINK HE’S ONE OF THE MOST
INSIGHTFUL CRITICS OF AMERICAN
DEMOCRACY FROM THE VANTAGE POINT
FROM BLACK EXPERIENCE.
THERE’S ALSO THIS DELICATE
BALANCE IN HIS WORK BETWEEN RAGE
AND LOVE.
THERE’S A KIND OF RIGHTEOUSES
INDIGNATION THAT SEEPS FROM
EVERY SENTENCE.
AND THEN THERE’S THIS KIND OF --
THIS LOVE THAT EMERGES IN THE
WAY IN WHICH HE’S WILLING TO BE
VULNERABLE.
HE HAS THIS WONDERFUL REVELATION
IN ORDER TO SAY SOMETHING
SIGNIFICANT ABOUT THE COUNTRY,
TO CRITICIZE THE COUNTRY, WE
HAVE TO EXAMINE THE MESSINESS OF
OUR OWN LIVES.
ALSO I THINK FOR THIS MOMENT, IT
IS HIS BALANCE BETWEEN DESPAIR
AND FAITH.
BALDWIN LIVED TO SEE DR. KING
ASSASSINATED.
HE LIVED TO SEE THE COUNTRY TURN
ITS BACK ON THE CIVIL RIGHTS
MOVEMENT.
HE UNDERSTOOD WHAT REAGAN’S
ELECTION MEANT FOR ALL THE
SACRIFICES THAT HE ENGAGED IN,
BUT YET HE STILL HELD THE FAITH
THAT AMERICA COULD BE BETTER,
THAT WE COULD, IN FACT, BE A NEW
JERUSALEM.
I WANTED TO FIGURE OUT HOW HE
HELD THOSE TWO IN BALANCE
BECAUSE MY DESPAIR, AT TIMES,
SEEMS TO OVERWHELM.
THAT’S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK.
>> I’LL TELL YOU, THANK YOU FOR
GETTING ME A COPY OF IT SEVERAL
MONTHS AGO.
IT’S AN EXTRAORDINARILY MOVING
BOOK.
AND A REALLY IMPORTANT BOOK FOR
MOST AMERICANS, ALL AMERICANS TO
READ, ESPECIALLYIGHT NOW.
MY GOODNESS, IT’S BECOME TIMELY.
HERE’S A PASSAGE FROM THE BOOK
ABOUT YOUR VISIT TO THE REMAINS
OF BALDWIN’S HOME.
>> THE RUINS WERE A FITTING
DESCRIPTION FOR WHAT BALDWIN SAW
IN THE LATTER PART OF HIS LIFE
IN THE UNITED STATES.
HE SAW DECAY AND WRECKAGE
ALONGSIDE GREED AND SELFISHNESS.
HE SAW AND FELT DEEPLY THE
EFFECTS OF AMERICA’S BETRAYAL OF
THE BLACK FREEDOM STRUGGLE OF
THE MID-20th CENTURY.
THE COUNTRY HAD REFUSED, ONCE
AGAIN, TO TURN ITS BACK ON
RACISM AND TO REACH FOR ITS
BETTER ANGELS AND OUR CHILDREN
WERE PAYING THE COST.
AS I LOOKED OUT ONTO THE RUINS
AND THOUGHT OF THE ELECTION OF
DONALD TRUMP AND THE UGLINESS
THAT CONSUMED MY COUNTRY, I
ASKED MYSELF, WHAT DO YOU DO
WHEN YOU HAVE LOST FAITH IN THE
PLACE THAT YOU CALL HOME?
THAT WASN’T QUITE THE WAY TO PUT
IT.
I NEVER HAD FAITH IN THE UNITED
STATES IN THE STRONGEST SENSE OF
THE WORD.
I HOPED THAT ONE DAY WHITE
PEOPLE HERE WOULD FINALLY LEAVE
BEHIND THE BELIEF THAT THEY
MATTERED MORE.
WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN THIS GLIMMER
OF HOPE FADES AND YOU’RE LEFT
WITH THE BELIEF THAT WHITE
PEOPLE WILL NEVER CHANGE, THE
COUNTRY, NO MATTER WHAT WE DO,
WILL REMAIN BASICALLY THE SAME?
AMID THE RUBBLE OF THE
CONSTRUCTION SITE AND THE SIGNS
PROMISING LUXURIOUS LIVING, I
THOUGHT OF BALDWIN AS AN ANSWER
TO MY QUESTIONS AND PART OF THE
REASON WHY I NEEDED TO WRITE
THIS BOOK.
HE GRAPPLED WITH PROFOUND
DISILLUSIONMENT AFTER THE MURDER
OF DR. KING AND YET HELD ONTO
HIS FAITH IN THE POSSIBILITY OF
A MOMENT WHEN WE COULD ALL BE
FULLY OURSELVES, WHAT HE
REFERRED TO AS A NEW JERUSALEM.
I HAD TO UNDERSTAND HOW HE DID
THAT AND WHAT RESOURCES, AS HE
CONFRONTED HIS DARK AMERICA, HE
MIGHT OFFER ME AS I CONFRONT THE
DARKNESS OF MY OWN.
>> JON MEACHAM, YOUR THOUGHTS ON
EDDIE AND THOSE POW.
ERFUL WORDS.
WELL, IT’S AN AMAZING BOOK AND
IMPORTANT AND URGENT.
AND WHAT I WOULD ASK MY FRIEND
IS, WHAT ARE THOSE RESOURCES?
WHAT HAVE YOU TAKEN FROM BALDWIN
AS WE ADDRESS AMERICA IN A
MOMENT OF TUMULT AND 127 DAYS OR
SO AWAY FROM AN ELECTION, BUT AN
ELECTION AND A SYSTEM SO MANY
PEOPLE BELIEVE IS FUNDAMENTALLY
CORRUPT?
>> RIGHT.
LET ME JUST SAY THIS TO MY
FRIEND JON MEACHAM.
YOU SAW THAT REFERENCE TO BETTER
ANGELS.
THAT MEANS THE SOUL OF AMERICA
WAS ON MY MIND AS I WAS WRITING
THE BOOK.
BUT I THINK WHAT I LEARNED, JON,
ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS.
ONE IS THAT YOU HAVE TO BEAR
WITNESS.
FOR WHAT BALDWIN MEANT BY
BEARING WITNESS, WE HAD TO TELL
THE TRUTH ABOUT THE SUFFERING IN
THE COUNTRY.
WE HAD TO BREAK THROUGH THE
ILLUSIONS.
WE HAD TO IN SOME WAYS INSIST,
WE HAVE TO INSIST ON A KIND OF
UNCOMFORTABLE POSITION WITH
REGARDS TO OUR
SELF-UNDERSTANDING TO OUR SELF’S
UNDERSTANDING SO WE CAN IMAGINE
OURSELVES OTHERWISE.
THAT’S THE FIRST THING.
THE SECOND THING I REALIZED,
THIS MOVING CLOSE TO 7,000
WORDS.
JUST IT’S AMAZING -- NO 7,000
ARTICLES, PIECES OF WRITING,
RIGHT, IS THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE
FAITH THAT WHEREVER HUMAN BEINGS
ARE, WE HAVE A CHANCE.
NO MATTER HOW DARK IT IS.
NO MATTER HOW BLEAK IT MAY SEEM.
IF WE ARE PRESENT IN THE
FULLNESS OF WHO WE ARE, WE HAVE
A CHANCE.
THERE’S NO GUARANTEE BUT WE JUST
HAVE TO STEP UP.
AND FOR ME, THAT WAS THIS
AMAZING INSIGHT, THIS ABIDING
FAITH IN THE CAPACITY OF HUMAN
BEINGS TO BE BETTER, EVEN THOUGH
WE REVEAL OURSELVES OVER AND
OVER AGAIN TO BE DISASTROUS.
THAT’S WHAT I FOUND.
>> LET’S TALK, EDDIE, ABOUT
PRINCETON, AND IT’S VERY
INTERESTING.
I HAVE SUPPORTED THE PRINCETON
PRESIDENT’S POSITION ALL ALONG.
WE’VE TALKED ABOUT IT AN AWFUL
LOT.
>> EXACTLY.
>> IN 2015, I SUPPORTED IT MUCH
MORE STRONGLY THAN I DID AFTER,
LET’S SAY, CHARLOTTESVILLE.
BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS
INTERESTING.
I KEPT REVISITING WILSON AND
PRINCETON IN MY MIND OVER THE
PAST MONTH AND THEN WHEN I SAW
THIS OP-ED BY THE PRESIDENT OF
PRINCETON, I SAID, MY GOD,
THAT’S GOING AROUND.
ALL OF THESE -- BECAUSE YOU AND
I HAVE TALKED ABOUT THIS A LOT.
HOW DO YOU BALANCE THE GOOD THAT
HE DID, THE PROGRESSIVENESS THAT
HE DID WITH THE FACT THAT HE
RESEGREGATED THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
AND IN 2020, AND AFTER
CHARLOTTESVILLE AND AFTER
EVERYTHING ELSE, AND FOR GEORGE
FLOYD, THAT BALANCING ACT
BECOMES FAR MORE DIFFICULT AND
YOU HAVE TO BALANCE ON THE SIDE,
OBVIOUSLY, IN THIS CASE, OF
REMOVING WILSON’S NAMES FROM
INSTITUTIONS IN PRINCETON.
TALK ABOUT THAT PROCESS OVER THE
PAST FIVE YEARS.
AND ONCE AGAIN HOW 2020 HAS
CHANGED THE WAY WE LOOK AT
EVERYTHING.
>> JOE, BETWEEN THE MISSISSIPPI
FLAG CHANGING AND PRINCETON
REMOVING WILSON’S NAME, I THINK
HELL IS FREEZING OVER.
BUT WE’RE IN THIS MOMENT THAT’S
REALLY, REALLY FASCINATING.
WHAT I LOVED ABOUT WHAT WAS SAID
IN "THE WASHINGTON POST" IS THAT
HE REALIZED -- HE ACKNOWLEDGED
HOW IMPORTANT WILSON IS AND HAS
BEEN TO PRINCETON SINCE
CONCEPTION.
THAT PRINCETON IS A MODERN
UNIVERSITY BECAUSE OF HIS
LEADERSHIP.
HE ALSO RECOGNIZED THE WAY IN
WHICH THE UNIVERSITY HAS TOLD A
STORY ABOUT WILSON, REDACTED SO
MUCH OF WHO HE WAS AND WHAT HE
HAD DONE.
PARTICULARLY THE CRUELTY AND
INSIDIOUS VIEWS HE HELD AROUND
RACE.
AND SO WHAT HE SAID WAS THE
COUNTRY HAS ENGAGED IN A
LONGSTANDING PRACTICE OF
DISREGARD WHEN IT COMES TO THE
REALITY OF RACISM AND ITS IMPACT
ON THE LIVES OF BLACK FOLK AND
IN SOME WAYS ON THE SOUL OF THE
COUNTRY.
AND THE MOVE HE THEN MADE WHICH
IS REALLY IMPORTANT, IN THIS
MOMENT, WE CANNOT DUPLICATE THAT
DISREGARD.
WHAT ARE WE TRYING TO COMMEND TO
OUR STUDENTS?
WOODROW WILSON STILL REMAINS AN
IMPORTANT PART OF WHO WE ARE,
BUT IT IS, I THINK, A MORAL AND
ETHICAL DECISION TO CHANGE THE
NAME.
AND THIS IS GOING TO BE A
DIFFICULT CONVERSATION EVERY
TIME WE HAVE IT.
IT DOESN’T MEAN WE HAVE TO TAKE
DOWN THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT OR
RID OURSELVES OF JEFFERSON AND
THE LIKE BUT IT REQUIRES OF US
TO TELL THE TRUTH, RIGHT, ABOUT
THE COMPLEXITY OF THESE FIGURES
SO THAT WE CAN IMAGINE OURSELVES
WITHOUT THE SAFETY OF OUR MYTHS
AND OUR LEGENDS, AS JOHN
MENTIONED EARLIER.
>> AND JON, IT IS INTERESTING
THE DECISION THAT PRINCETON MADE
REGARDING WILSON.
BUT YOU HAVE OTHERS.
AND DONALD TRUMP IS NOW
SUGGESTING, OF COURSE, USING
THIS AS A CALL TO WAR THAT THE
STATUES OF WASHINGTON AND
JEFFERSON AND MADISON AND OTHERS
MIGHT BE TORN DOWN AND JESUS,
HE’S THE ONLY ONE LEFT DEFENDING
IT.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT
THIS REPUBLIC WOULD NOT EXIST
BUT FOR GEORGE WASHINGTON.
THAT MARTIN LUTHER KING USED AS
A RIGHTEOUS HAMMER THE WORDS OF
THOMAS JEFFERSON THAT HE DRAFTED
IN HIS LETTER FROM BIRMINGHAM
JAIL.
HE USED IT AGAINST
SEGREGATIONISTS TO POSITIVE
EFFECT AND JAMES MADISON CREATED
A CONSTITUTION THAT STILL, ALONG
WITH HAMILTON, THAT STILL HOLDS
TYRANTS IN CHECK IN THIS
COUNTRY.
AND SO IT IS A BALANCING ACT, IS
IT NOT?
AND WE HAVE TO BE SURE THAT WE
STRIKE THE RIGHT BALANCE AT ALL
TIMES.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
AND THE HISTORY, THE LEGISLATIVE
HISTORY IF YOU WILL, OF EACH OF
THESE MONUMENTS AND MEMORIALS IS
ESSENTIAL.
YOU AND EDDIE WERE TALKING ABOUT
THE MISSISSIPPI FLAG.
THE FACT IS WENT UP IN 1894 WHEN
THE BLACK CODES AND JIM CROW WAS
COMING INTO BEING TELLS YOU ALL
YOU NEED TO KNOW.
THE LINCOLN MEMORIAL WAS SEEN AS
A KIND OF -- THE REPUBLICAN
MONUMENT.
FDR PRESSED FOR THE COMPLETION
OF THE JEFFERSON MEMORIAL IN
1943.
AND IT WAS -- IN FDR’S MIND, AT
THAT POINT, THIS IS WHAT WE ARE
FIGHTING FOR ABROAD.
WE’RE FIGHTING FOR THE IDEALS OF
RELIGIOUS LIBERTY, INDIVIDUAL
LIBERTY.
NOT TO SAY THAT EVERYTHING
SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED HERE.
BUT I THINK ONE OF THE MOST
AMERICAN PLACES IN THE WORLD
RIGHT NOW IS THE TIDAL BASIN
BECAUSE YOU HAVE MARTIN LUTHER
KING STARING IN PERPETUITY AT
THOMAS JEFFERSON.
AND WHENEVER I’M THERE, I ALWAYS
THINK THAT IT’S KING WAITING AND
URGING JEFFERSON TO BE APPLIED
TO EVERYONE.
AND SO I TEND TO BE MORE
ADDITIVE AND CONTEXTUALIST IF
YOU WILL.
SINCE WE HAVE A PRINCETON GUY WE
CAN USE THE WORD CONTEXTUALIST.
I THINK THAT LET’S EXPLORE THE
MECHANICS OF MEMORY.
LET’S UNDERSTAND, AS WELL, THAT
SOMETIMES TO COMMEMORATE IS NOT
TO CELEBRATE.
THAT’S IMPORTANT IT SEEMS TO ME.
AND WHEN YOU DRIVE THROUGH
WASHINGTON, THE MONUMENTS YOU
SEE, BY AND LARGE, ARE MONUMENTS
TO THOSE WHO, HOWEVER FLAWED,
HOWEVER SINFUL, HOWEVER LIMITED
THEIR VIEWS WERE, THEY WERE
PEOPLE WHO WERE TRYING TO PUSH
US TOWARD THAT MORE PERFECT
UNION.
AND WHAT I WOULD ARGUE IS THAT
THE NEXT GREAT PHASE IN AMERICAN
MEMORY, IN THE MECHANICS OF
MEMORY, SHOULD BE FINDING WAYS
TO COMMEMORATE THOSE WHO DIDN’T
JUST BEND THE ARC OF A MORAL
UNIVERSE BUT WHO INSISTED THAT
IT SWERVE.
>> EDIE, WE’VE BEEN TALKING FOR
SOME TIME ABOUT THIS ISSUE AND
WRITING ABOUT IT, HAVING A
SPECIAL SHOW TO TALK ABOUT IT.
AND I LOOK FORD DOING THAT.
BUT JUST YOUR FINAL THOUGHTS ON
WHAT JON SAID, KING LOOKING AT
JEFFERSON AT THE TIDAL BASIN.
KING USING THE WORDS OF
JEFFERSON AGAINST
SEGREGATIONISTS IN HIS LETTER
FROM THE BIRMINGHAM JAIL.
MADISON.
HOW DO WE STRIKE THESE BALANCES
AND UPHOLD THE IDEAS OF THESE
VERY FLAWED MEN BUT UNDERSTAND
THAT WE MOVE FORWARD AS A
COUNTRY BECAUSE OF MANY OF THESE
LOFTY IDEAS AND BELIEFS.
>> JOE, THAT’S SUCH A WONDERFUL
QUESTION IN SO MANY WAYS.
LET ME JUST SAY THIS REALLY
QUICKLY.
IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WE NEED TO
TELL OUR STORY IN SUCH A WAY
WHERE IT’S NOT ABOUT WHITE
AMERICANS EXTENDING THE POWER OF
ITS TRADITION TO BLACK FOLK,
INCLUDING US.
IT’S NOT ABOUT CHARITY.
IT’S NOT ABOUT A PHILANTHROPIC
ENTERPRISE BUT TO TELL THE STORY
OF THE COUNTRY IN SUCH A WAY
THAT JEFFERSON AND KING ARE
INEXTRICABLY LINKED.
THAT THEY’RE PART OF THE VERY
FABRIC OF THE COUNTRY.
NOT SO MUCH ABOUT, WE WERE ONCE
THIS AND THEN KING FORCED US TO
THAT.
NO, NO, NO.
BUT THE VERY WAY, THE ACTUAL
CONTENT, THE SUBSTANCE OF WHO WE
ARE BOUND UP IN THE UGLINESS OF
SLAVERY.
BOUND UP IN THE PRINCIPLES OF
AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, BOUND UP IN
OUR CONSTITUTION AS FLAWED AS IT
IS AND AS IT WAS, RIGHT, THAT
THIS STORY IS, WE ARE
CONSTITUENTS OF IT.
WE ARE CRITICAL PART IN IT.
AND WE NEED TO TELL THAT STORY
IN SUCH A WAY THAT WE DON’T --
THAT BLACK FOLK DON’T FEEL AS
LATE COMERS IF THAT MAKES SENSE.
BUT THE BOOK GETS AT ALL OF
THIS, AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT
OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAYS.
>> AND WE ABSOLUTELY WILL.
JON MEACHAM AND EDDIE GLAUDE,
THANK YOU.
WE’LL SEE YOU AGAIN TOMORROW FOR
MORE ON YOUR TIMELY NEW BOOK
"BEGIN AGAIN."
JAMES BALDWIN’S AMERICA AND ITS
URGENT LESSONS FOR OUR OWN.
THANKS SO MUCH.
>>> BEFORE WE FINISH TODAY, AT
1:30 P.M. AT KNOW YOUR VALUES
INSTAGRAM, YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN IS
JOINED FOR A DISCUSSION ON BLACK
WOMEN LEADERS THEN AND NOW.
HEAD TO UNDERSCORE KNOW YOUR
VALUE ON INSTAGRAM AT 1:30 P.M.