Amna: Welcome to "The newshour."
The Biden administration
announced today that the U.S.
Will provide Ukraine with
thousands of cluster munitions
-- bombs and artillery shells
that release scores of smaller
so-called bomblets across a wide
area.
Ukraine had requested these
controversial weapons, which the
U.S. Says could bolster Kyiv's
offensive against Russian
forces.
More than 120 countries have
signed a convention banning
cluster bombs, which sometimes
fail to explode on impact,
posing a significant risk to
civilians for years after their
use.
U.S. Leaders debated the issue
for months, before president
Biden made the final decision
this week.
The president told CNN today it
was a quote difficult decision
-- one his national security
advisor Jake Sullivan outlined
earlier this afternoon.
Mr. Sullivan: We recognize that
cluster munitions create a risk
of civilian harm from unexploded
ordnances; that is why we
deferred the decision for as
long as we could.
But there is also a massive risk
of civilian harm if Russian
troops and tanks roll over
Ukrainian positions and take
more Ukrainian territory and
subjugate more Ukrainian
civilians because Ukraine does
not have enough artillery.
That is intolerable to us.
Ukraine would not be using these
munitions in some foreign land.
This is their country they're
defending.
These are their citizens they're
protecting.
And they are motivated to use
any weapons system they have in
a way that minimizes risk to
those citizens.
Amna: The U.S. Decision has
sparked concerns from a nato
ally and from human rights
activists who see this as
short-sighted.
We get two perspectives.
William Taylor served in the
Vietnam war, was U.S. Ambassador
to Ukraine under George W. Bush,
and is now a vice president at
the U.S. Institute of peace, a
government-funded institute.
And Marc garlasco is a former
defense department analyst,
helping select bombing targets,
then worked for human rights
watch investigating the
aftermath of U.S. Military
operations.
He's now with the institute for
international criminal
investigations.
Gentlemen, welcome to you both.
Thanks for joining us.
Marc, I'll begin with you.
What do you make of the
administration's reasoning for
why they are sending these
particular weapons at this
particular time?
Marc: Well, first, let me say I
fully support Ukraine in their
conflict against Russia and the
illegal invasion that has
happened.
But this is just the wrong
choice right now.
When reports of cluster munition
use by Russia first came out,
were first reported, Jen psaki,
in the white house stated that
this was a likely war crime and
now we're going to be providing
the same types of munitions to
Ukraine.
I think this is really a huge
mistake.
The potential for civilian harm
is too great and Ukraine is
winning the war right now, using
precision guided munitions like
American hi Mars and British
storm shadows.
So we should not be sending them
weapons that are indiscriminate
and incapable of being
individually targeted.
Amna: Ambassador Taylor, the us
themselves have stopped
essentially using this entirely
for the last 20 years.
120 countries say they have
banned them as well.
Why these weapons right now?
William: Right now, the
Ukrainians are running out of
ammunition.
Right now, they are defending
themselves against the Russians.
The Russians, as mark said, have
invaded Ukraine unprovoked,
brutal, killing civilians.
And the Ukrainians have been
defending themselves against
this Russian attack and they've
been using the equipment and the
weapons and the ammunition that
they've had valiantly and
massively to defend themselves.
And right now they are running
out of ammunition to do that.
Just at the time when they are
preparing to try to push the
Russians out of their country.
So the Ukrainians, they have the
incentives to protect their own
civilians.
That's exactly what they're
trying to do by keeping the
Russians out.
We've seen what happens when the
Russians occupy Ukrainian towns.
We see what happens to
civilians.
So this is what we're fighting
against and this is why we're
supporting the Ukrainians, just
as Marc said.
Marc, what do you make of the
U.S.
Assurances that the Ukrainians
have given them written
assurances about the limited use
that they won't they'll try to
mitigate, rather, civilian risk,
and also that they're only
offering munitions that have
what they call a low dud rate.
That's the rate at which they
fail to explode upon landing,
which they say will also lessen
civilian risk.
Marc: Sure.
Look, this discussion started
with Ukraine stating they were
only going to use American
cluster munitions dropped
individually from drones.
Now it's evolved into something
where they're going to use
American artillery and rocket
artillery, cluster munitions.
You know, I think we have to
question what the reality is
here and where is it going to
stop.
The potential for civilian harm
is just too high.
You know, you spoke about the
dud raid, right.
These munitions, the Pentagon is
now saying, well, they only have
a 2% rate.
But when you look at the U.S.
Government's actual figures, the
government accountability
office, for example, it has a
23% dud rate.
If we look at a standard volley
from rocket artillery, which
would be six rockets fired from
hi Mars you're looking at over
, 3800 cluster munitions.
That's 888 duds that are on the
ground that potentially could
kill civilians.
Each shell would have 20
unexploded bomblets.
We had a meeting today with the
national security council, and
it was kind of one of these
things where you get together
and they try to make the ngos
feel happy and say, you know,
we've got a control on this.
We have diplomatic assurances.
The reality is, when we asked
them, how did you come to these
new numbers?
Were there tests?
How were the tests completed?
Did you have them done under
hermetically sealed manner or
was it actually a field test in
a war, as I've seen and covered
in the past and they were unable
to answer our questions.
It just was unacceptable.
Amna: Ambassador Taylor, we know
the Ukrainians have been
requesting other weapons systems
as well.
How much of a difference with
-- difference would these
cluster munitions actually make
in Ukraine's counteroffensive
effort?
William: In the Norma's
difference -- an enormous
difference.
That's exactly the problem.
They are going to run out of
artillery, ammunition if they
don't get these weapons.
If we had if we had another kind
of the normal kind of these
weapons, these ammunition, we
would use that we would provide
them, the Ukrainians would use.
That's what they've been asking
for.
What they're asking for is
ammunition for their artillery
so that they can defend
themselves and they can push the
Russians out.
The other point is that that
there's going to exactly as Marc
says, no matter what the done
-- dud rate, whether it's 3% or
5% or 2%, whether it turns out
that the Russian rate is like
30%.
So it's incredible.
But that makes the point after
this war, the Ukrainians say
after the victory, they are
going to have to clean up a lot
of unexploded ordnance from
around their battlefields.
And most of that are coming from
the Russian mines.
Right now, what's keeping the
the counteroffensive from from
going very well is keeping the
Ukrainians from breaking through
the Russian lines are mines.
And after the after the victory,
as the Ukrainians say, they're
going to have to clean up, find
all these mines.
And whether they'd look for
those mines, they'll be looking
for the duds from the cluster
munitions as well.
So they're going to have to
clean it up.
They know where they're going to
be firing it.
They know where the Russian
mines are.
They know where the Russian
cluster munitions have been
used.
So it's going to be an enormous
clean up before they can use
that land again.
Amna: What would you say to
that?
Marc: Well, Mr.
Ambassador, I really appreciate
what your position is on this,
but you were in the army.
I was in the Pentagon conducting
targeting.
The reality is when you blanket
the area with these cluster
munitions, not only do you have
the potential of civilian harm
for the duds, but a complete
lack of ability for the military
to maneuver through them.
When we look at lessons learned
from the gulf war and the Iraq
war in 2003, many of the lessons
that the army took from this was
their inability to maneuver
through them and the concern
that that Ukrainian soldiers are
going to die on the cluster
munitions that they launched
themselves.
And not only that, then you're
also going to add to the
problem.
Yes, there's a huge uxo
, unexploded ordinance, problem
in Ukraine.
It is a heavily contaminated
country, but we do not need to
contribute to that with cluster
munitions.
Amna: Ambassador, I gave Marc
the first word.
I'll give you the last one here
by asking you if you're
concerned at all that this
decision, which is a reversal of
previous international
consensus, does it represent a
slippery slope?
William: My concern is that the
Ukrainians be able to defeat the
Russians.
My concern is that the
Ukrainians have the ability, the
arms, the ammunition, the
weapons that they need in order
to defeat the Russians who have
invaded their country.
This is a hard decision.
I totally agree.
I know this is not easy.
This is why the administration
took long as long as it did.
This is why other nations are
having this exact kind of
conversation.
But the issue here and the issue
here is whether or not the
Ukrainians are going to be able
to defeat the Russians as they
have invaded their country.
Amna: That is ambassador bill
Taylor and Marc garlasco joining
us tonight.
Gentlemen, thank you so much for
your time and your insights.
We appreciate it.
Marc: Thank you.
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