- I recently sat down with transgender scientist and runner,
Joanna Harper, to learn more about her research,
and what it says about the transgender community
in sports and beyond.
Take a look.
[Jim] Meet Joanna Harper.
She's a scientist who authored
the very first study on transgender athletes.
She even advises the International Olympic Committee.
So if anyone knows her stuff, it's Joanna.
- First of all, look, I don't know what to think about this.
This is something that I haven't really had an opinion on.
I'm sorry if I use any outdated, um,
words in this whole thing.
I'm trying me best, and I wanna learn. Okay?
- Okay. Yeah.
- The argument that people make is that
when someone has a sex change,
and mostly this is from male to female,
that if they go to compete in a female sport after that,
they have an unfair advantage.
Is this true?
- Well, first of all, it's complicated.
But the hormone therapy that trans women undergo
makes many changes in the biological qualities
that are important for sport.
Trans women have bigger frames,
which are now being powered by reduced muscle mass,
and reduced aerobic capacity,
so it's like a big car with a small engine,
- Right, right.
- Competing against a small car with a small engine.
So trans women have--
- Right, it's like a Buick.
- Yeah, yeah.
(audience laughing)
- Not a Tesla.
- Yeah, not a Tesla, no.
(audience laughing)
[Jim] And this isn't just Joanna's gut feeling,
for her study, she collected data
from eight transgender runners,
people who are transitioning from male to female.
The results? Before hormone therapy,
they competed at the same level as other men.
After hormone therapy,
they competed at the same level as other women.
- So, after hormonal transition,
trans women are no longer biologically male.
Trans women are not taking over women's sports.
The best evidence of that so far is NCAA sports.
The NCAA has allowed trans women to compete
after a year of hormone therapy since 2011.
That's eight years ago,
and trans women are NOT taking over NCAA sports,
and probably won't in other sports.
- Here's an argument that people would say against, um,
a female that wants to become a male,
or start taking testosterone.
- Correct.
- What's the difference between that and
Alex Rodriguez taking steroids?
- They take testosterone to become more like men,
but they start from a female point of disadvantage.
And if they work really hard,
and take their testosterone,
they can get up to pretty close to typical male.
- Right.
There's a professional boxer, Patricio Manuel,
there's a swimmer, Schuyler Bailar--
- So wait, there's a,
there's a person who was born a female
who is boxing against men?
- Yes! He wasn't always a professional,
so he beat a dude.
- Wow.
(audience laughing)
- That's, uh, that's tough.
- Uh-huh.
(Jim laughing)
- What you're saying to me sounds very reasonable. Right?
But is there a risk of dick heads (bleep)-ing this up?
Like with everything?
- Well--
- Right, you get some dick head, right, who goes,
"I'm a woman now, I'd like to compete in the 100 meters."
And doesn't really wanna be a woman,
just wants to cause a fuss.
- It could, in theory, happen.
But there are so many downsides to being transgender
that, you know, it's not like it's the cool club to join.
You know, when I told my mother that I was really a woman,
her reaction was, you know,
"I never wanna see you again."
So maybe I can win a district track medal,
but it means that my family boots me out and I'm homeless.
You know, um, yes it's possible--
- You could have my mother.
My mother desperately wanted me to be a girl.
(audience laughing)
- I'm not kidding, my mother used to sit me down into bed
and go, "If you're gay, that's okay with me."
She really wanted a daughter.
And she would've been over the moon,
we should swap families.
(Joanna laughing)
[Jim] So trans athletes might get grief from their families,
they get grief from the far-right,
but for taking a scientific approach
and saying that trans athletes should
get their hormone levels checked,
Joanna gets grief from one other group.
- Do liberals ever get mad at you?
Do you ever get heat that you're not progressive enough?
- Absolutely.
I've been called a traitor to transgender people.
- Trans- Transgender traitor?!
That's hard to say.
- Yes, yes it is.
(audience laughing)
- It's harder to be one, too.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(Joanna laughing)
- But I'm a scientist first of all,
and that's how I see the world.
I see it through a scientific lens.
- It's very hard to be a moderate in this world.
You can't find a lot of friends when you're moderate,
and that's where you think you should.
- Yeah.
- Here's one.
Should a female be able to compete
in RuPaul's Drag Race?
(audience laughing)
- Um--
- Because I feel that show's a little bit heterophobic.
(Joanna laughing)
- I've tried to be a judge on that show for
(bleep)-ing seven years, I tweet about it,
I know every drag queen who's been on the show,
I would be an excellent judge on Ru Paul's drag race.
Ball's in your court, Ru.
(audience clapping)
- So even Joanna Harper isn't sure how we can achieve
equal and meaningful competition.
In my mind,
if you're the best at your sport,
I don't care what group you fit into.
Let's not split athletes up into
gender or hormone levels or weight class,
everyone just plays together.
And we let natural abilities sort it out.
There's no NBA,
there's no WNBA,
there's just BA.
If you're good at B,
congratulations, you're in the A!
(audience cheering)
Now that's for professional athletes,
and for everyone else,
I'm starting my own league.
But it's only sports I can play,
like pinball or cornhole,
or burning my own chest hairs with a lighter.
(audience laughing)
- In my league,
drugs are encouraged.
(audience laughing)
- Bring drugs.
(audience laughing)
And in the true spirit of competition,
I'm accepting everyone.
All sexual orientations, body types, races, and ages.
I call it the Jefferies Association
of Professional Sportspeople.
(audience laughing and clapping)
It's completely inclusive
and not offensive in any way.
(Rock music)