I'm joined today by Professor Brian Kaplan is professor of economics at
George Mason University is also a blogger for econ log
and author of the myth above the rational voter
and selfish reasons to have more kids
so it's really great to have you I saw your reddit ask me anything where you
talked about being an advocate for both
3 immigration and free trade and you talked about your mostly libertarian
economic believe so I'm very interested in both these
a free immigration in free trade let's start first with
reintegration talk about how Bell you developed your rationale for free
immigration
well it's really pretty similar to the economic rationale for free trade sale
you know the usual calm a story about free trade is that when people are
allowed to trade with anyone they want to
on the entire planet people are as rich
as they could possibly be I said oh oh oh over overall well-being is as high as
is possibly going to be
I'll be in for free migration for free immigration it's really just the same ID
apply to labor
the idea that's you have the richest the best world where anyone can go in take
any job anywhere on Earth
where they can use their talents to the fall extent that they can
arceneaux when you think about
what it would be like if you were sucking it hard to cut how little you
could actually accomplish their
on you realize in the most countries in the world are economically speaking a
lot like antarctica where people are not able to make anywhere near for use their
skills
people really do want to move to countries where they can take more
advantage
are what they know how to do but it's generally a legal
right and then me on top of this economic arguments
there's the deeper point that's unlike free trade which
it would we we are not that far away from free trade and most estimates say
it's the only with the barriers we have we're not doing that much charm
appears on migration really are doing enormous harm are we there really are
trapping
billions of people and desperate poverty in the third world
when they're perfectly good jobs for them to come over here and do when they
could take care of themselves
if they were just allowed to do it so let's explore this a little bit you know
within the context first just to frame this within the context that the
american political landscape it we have two parties it is essentially Democrats
and Republicans
Democrats favor more immigrate migration mobility
then republicans but neither favors a completely open system
and Republicans are increasingly interested in actually limiting that
migration so let's talk
short-term and longer-term sure we open the borders
okay up short term what happens in my mind I think that you will see
more movement from people coming
from depressed countries to countries where the economy is better certainly
Canada and the United States
Western European countries is that what you would see is happening in the short
run and what would be the
immediate economic impact of such movement yes ofcourse
are there are right on to people who are ready to pack their bags and calm as
soon as they are not to do so
the main reason why it wouldn't be quite as much a deluge as people think
is an important factor in immigrations was called the how the Dr diaspora
so generally I L a big factor is whether to move to countries where there's
already a lot of people from your country in that country with your
friends and relatives and people speak your language
sell for the US especially what we should expect it first
is it on immigration for America because there are already a lot of Latin
Americans here
and they have friends and family that will help them to just
so that we should expect to see in the short term our course other things they
should exceed the short term
is are using a little lower wages for low-skilled workers because there are so
many low-skilled workers wanna come
are you should try to see a lot more this will already so I don't want to
sugarcoat it
are selling like if poor people not to calm you would see poverty
the important thing to remember is there much for back in their home countries
it's just that when therefore they are you don't work it
right so in a quality might be more visible in the United States but
you'll have less if those people that are living on
a dollar a day in parts of the world that we don't even really think about
when we're here in the United States
so let's think about the CL really horrendous which one that was understood
that would render the most important thing is Shazia very large increase in
production
right now my there so many people on earth were stuck in countries where they
really just can't make anywhere near anywhere near the for use their talents
and the man what are the main things we see when someone comes from 400 rich
country
is that their production drastically increases
you I have a haitian in miami is about 20 times as productive as a haitian in
Haiti
its even if they are illiterates and lacking in skills by our standards
still they can accomplish so much more if they're able to go to a country where
there are businesses that are ready to channel their energy and right away
so let's explore a little bit of what might start to happen then in the medium
and longer term is a reaction to this my
initial instinct is that there may be assertive balancing effect
in that the move away from so many of these areas like he said on
in the and the Western Hemisphere from Latin America to North America
in in Europe maybe from northern Africa into europe
that we would maybe see very cheap
property low taxes and favorable conditions in some of the areas that are
vacated in the short term
and might we see people start moving
in the opposite direction because if the economic
opportunities and maybe favorable conditions could that happen
%ah that's a great question now the short answer is yes are really we don't
you speculate that this week look at her Rica
so hurry gone when it was taken by the United States after the spanish-american
war
are they got open borders with United States I first there was no there was
only a very small amount immigration be for these the aspirations my mentions
however first you had a few adventures from ricans came to try their luck and
they did well and then the next group are slightly less adventurous parisians
can try their luck
eventually that happen to recollect I'll then occurs over time what you're saying
I happened which is that
all the you have all these poor ratings United States making much better money
than they ever got home
they send a lot of that money home and many of them lined up to turning away
might wind up eventually want to retire back
in their in their home country right where their own territory
so does this general idea with money mobility and
and people mobility does it go in the direction %uh
really eliminating I don't know if I wanna say they need
but does it in some way make obsolete the entire system
up countries with borders is it in the direction of a one-world government or a
a collective government sorts
now there's been there's no reason for this to be anything like what like one
more government even a free trade without having
all without having a role governments are you can and it's possible for people
to move between borders without having a one-world government
so in the nineteenth century with a few glaring exceptions for Asian immigrants
United States had some nasa had had essentially open borders
on that didn't mean the United States was gonna become part of some united
nations or anything like that
israeli policy that any one country can adopt unilaterally
course the larger the country larger country is
the the smaller the thanks for going to seem GL
I by s on everlasting audits no its not the kinda policy require anything like
government in
actually the other the reasons to be scared if they were all governments the
main one being
is the one is that one world government source get bad where you go
so then my last thing I wanna touch on is what in in your presentation and
discussion of this with both the
more progressive and conservative Americans
what are the biggest gripes that the American Left
an American right have with your proposal and I'm assuming that they're
different concerns
are well so in in many ways they're not as different as you think
because the differences between conservatives and progressives in the
United States are generally greatly exaggerated
are they they know they are I i think im is being like Catholics and Protestants
where the essentially have the same views but they measure to guess
a few minor doctrinal points and blow them on her portion in order to be very
angry each other
are my cell UN General both conservatives and progressives they are
nationalists
so they think that it's important to focus on americans first
are really with very little attention paid to the consequences for people in
other countries
and of course you're both conservatives and progressives our social democratic
in that they do want to take arab-americans and what governments do
its
is a discreet about how much but I say it's not nearly as large as people think
our buddy how you are right that's their the complaints do
wind up being being somewhat different on immigration in silver conservatives
in LA are they did they do tend to emphasize the Nationals me even more the
idea that we should be taking care of first
writing them I say lookin is not your cell immigration are you allowing
allowing person to come here get a job it's not sure it's not for dade
is leading a person go and get a job from work employer
see you think that if conservatives care about free market principles at all
that's they want to stand up for the right of a person to get a job
are so that's that's the end the medicine that is near asheghetam
conservatives just thinking what this is our country and
we don't help you know people from other countries anything I said we'll on a
matter going and things just a matter of letting them get a job like anybody else
are progressing in there there's a lot of concern about
immigration putting a strain on the American welfare state
the idea is if we have a lot of progress com then
with this is this means they're not going to be enough resources to take
care of poor people already here
all noted I see well response seems odd that you be so concerned about
relatively poor Americans who by Ross energy are generally doing fine
compared to genuinely poor people the third world we're just looking to get a
job
so I think that know that there is a bit odd anti-gay Cliq that's really is your
concern there's no reason why you couldn't have things like
eligibility requirements for new immigrants welfare saying that you can't
quite welfare Intel you been in the country for ten years
art 800,000 taxes are beginning to that progresses tend to freak out about your
attitude your system
you have a two-tier system right now says right now to your number two means
you aren't even allowed to legally change is much less quite government
money
arceneaux are you know that's the %uh that has general generally been might my
experience with dresses is there any other very concerned with
I'll leave you with it without with what we think it was for Americans although
as to why you'd be more concerned about them than
desperately poor people are people in Haiti where leading dirt's I
don't know yet what it comes down to this idea that
the the lines between the countries are more than just imaginary lines right
that's really were a lot of that
kinda double double-standard early still shifting views are different views i
think comes from
it's a fascinating idea a professor Bryan Caplan professor economics at
George Mason University
check out the myth of the rational voter as well as selfish reasons to have more
kids
really great to have you on thanks so much thanks for having me