hello and welcome to a special interview
for the wire
the president of the delhi branch of the
bjp has written to chief minister kg
while suggesting that 40 mughal era
villages in delhi should have their
names changed because he says they are
symbols of slavery is that a justified
and legitimate request or is it
illogical unconscionable and possibly
undesirable to help me answer that
question i have with me the well-known
author and historian and the former
convener of the delhi chapter of intact
swapna little dr little as i said in
that introduction the delhi bjp
president adesh gupta has written to
chief minister kejri while suggesting
that 40 villages in the delhi area such
as ziya saraism rudpur
and many others should have their name
changed because as he puts it and i'm
quoting him delhi is no longer mughlunki
sarai it is the country's capital there
should be no symbol of slavery in the
city especially when we are celebrating
75 years of independence first of all
how do you view this suggestion
it's actually quite silly because name
changing always is a problematic thing
we have to i i would as a historian look
at where these names are coming from why
do you object to them and uh
for one it is very s
you know some of the names that i see
there jia sarai bear
for instance these are sarais which were
founded by people
you know katwarya sarai you know the
name katwarya does not suggest that this
was
you know a mughal sarai in that sense or
even a sultanat
ruler who made this sarai this is a
local name and if the objection is to
sarai then i mean you the use of the
concept of
resting places have been a part of
indian culture for a long time so none
of the saris are connected to mughal
assault and rulers some of them may be
two noble
people you know rich benefactors who
built these sarais so that may well be
but i'm just saying that many of them uh
they're not definitely not rulers most
of them so when he says that these names
are symbols of slavery how do you
respond to that
i i am really i'm really flummoxed i
don't know i really don't know so you
know where this is coming from is it the
use of the name sarai or you know this
is a cut reaction to anything that is
urdu
you know without looking that your
letter itself talks about azadi and
holami which are
words that are of arabic origin i mean i
i i it
baffles me really so you don't believe
these are symbols of slavery at all not
at all not at all
look at the other kind of thing you know
you have najafkar for instance or you
have saya al-jab these are named after
the people who founded these places
najaf khan of the late 18th century was
a very well known uh a very powerful
mughal general but remember he was also
before he became the general a general
in the mughal empire he was in became
the most powerful man in the mughal
empire after the emperor he was the guy
who fought
on behalf of meerkasim against the
british at the battle of bhaksar you
know how is this becoming and he founds
this really in fact if he fought with
meerkase against the british you could
claim he's a freedom fighter yes i mean
and he founds this place not named to
honor him in that sense not
commemorative naming now i was speaking
to the historian gupta and she tells me
i'll quote what she said settlements
called poor
indicate land given as grants by rulers
and named for the recipient
so she adds
would have referred to some beneficiary
not to the empress doesn't that mean
that the claim that adesh gupta is
trying to make that these are associated
with rulers falls on both counts it
falls on the count of the example you
gave about surprise it falls on discount
as well yes definitely and you know
often what happens is in the popular
memory these things fade we don't know
exactly who this barber was after whom
this babarpur is named
it's not named after barber the mughal
emperor definitely so adesh gupta has
got his facts completely wrong he's
misunderstood the origin and the naming
of sarais he's misunderstood the fact
that some places like babarpur humayufur
are not named after emperors they're
named after the beneficiaries who got
grants right
in other words this letter is not
an educated piece of work and the
assumptions are illogical
absolutely i mean that goes without
saying let me make a wider point if
gupta objects to the fact
that you can't name cities or places
after mughal rulers or sultanate rulers
because he alleges that they ill-treated
and killed indians particularly hindus
then presumably the name ashok which
adorns roads and hotels in delhi should
also be removed because by his own
admission on his own edicts ashok killed
a hundred thousand people and more in
kalinga at the time
it was considered tyranny
by today's morality it might be
considered attempted genocide so his
name should also be removed
let's
face it all empires all kingdoms all
great
conquerors and great rulers all empires
are made through conquest conquest is
war
and that involves death deaths
so
you know
one person's conqueror is another one's
invader and in fact i could mention that
pushpa mithras is responsible for
killing thousands if not tens of
thousands of buddhists when he was
trying to bring back hinduism
so it's happened repeatedly in history
adesh gupta is simply pointing at the
mughals and the sultanates forgetting
hindu kings and ashoka in particular did
precisely the same
exactly that that that's very true
and it's very interesting that this sort
of looking at all sultanat all mughal as
invaders
one very important thing that they
forget is i think we we have evidence of
what indians at the time
how they viewed you know how do the
people of delhi look at the on these
tell me that's very interesting how did
they view these people and we have very
interesting evidence in the form of a
few uh inscriptions which are to be
found in old wells in delhi you know
wells were something that rich merchants
etc often
built for public as a as a public uh
benefit is this what we call bowling
paolis and so there is for instance
there is a very famous uh bauli uh
palambali's inscription so a rich
merchant who lived in
palum built this bali and it's very
interesting how it's built in the 13th
century during the reign of the
slave sultan balban and how he describes
balban as this great ruler this great
conqueror and he says that you know the
shakkas have come after the so he lists
the rulers of delhi he says the thomas
came and the johanns came and then the
shahkas came and one of the shakkas is
this guy who's ruling now balban who's a
great ruler he's conquered everything
from those seven seas or whatever very
hyperbole the inscription has a sense of
pride behind it yes it does and in fact
he goes on to say can i interrupt you
don't think adesh gupta would say this
is not genuine pride this is in fact
force this is a man being required by
circumstances to express pride when he
doesn't feel it that may be his repost
it could be i mean you know he could
respond to that but this is not a not an
inscription which is placed in a very
important position this is placed in a
well in a village which this man you
know it's his village
you know he lives and the emperor would
never would not know about this
the location makes it genuine yes and
the way he and he says that you know
there's so much peace now in this
country that uh there
that sheishnag who uh you know upholds
the earth does not need to do this job
anymore and he's gone and he's reclining
or you know he's gone and he's resting
on the ocean of milk on which vishnu is
nowadays so there are many instances
which show that the people of delhi at
the time actually looked upon their
rulers be they sultanate or mughal not
just with respect and affection but with
pride yes they did so you know because
they are delhi people as similarly
there's another inscription of narayana
which where uh the
the
it's a sanskrit inscription where
sridhar who's writing who's
who's installed this says that you know
the vedas are being chanted in delhi
because there's now so much peace
and this is during the 14th century the
vedas are being chanted because there's
so much peace under a mughal muslim
ruler
yes so the exact opposite of what mr
adesh gupta would have expected exactly
but there's something else that mr gupta
doesn't realize you can't undo or
rewrite history by simply changing a
name and i'll cite the example of
hannover square in london it's one of
the best-known squares in the british
capital it's named after a german
dynasty that ruled britain from 1714 to
1901
two world wars were fought thereafter
with germany many british people died at
german hands but no one bothered to
change the name of hanover square
because the hanoverians are an ina
radical part of british history just as
the mughals and the sultanate are a
inseparable part of indian history
absolutely i mean that's very true and
you know again looking at the level of a
village for instance many of these have
now become urbanized villages the people
who are associated who have long
histories in these villages and some of
them do who live there you know they're
descendants of these people in all the
old records it's by these names that the
villages are known so their own records
the government records which say that
such and such village the people
participated in the non-cooperation
movement for instance you know their
history is tied up with that particular
name the particular name of that village
absolutely you changed that then you're
you're disconnected from your history
this is a very important point you're
making because people are and places are
not just identified by their names those
names also acquire an emotional
association and the character of the
place now is defined by the name if you
now abruptly change the name you're
distorting the character of the place
and in time people may forget that this
is the same village which was then known
as something else where these momentous
things happened and also people grow up
calling their village neb sarai lado
sarai horse cast they become fond of
that name they like it
if you suddenly impose a change you're
offending their sentiments and their
associations
very true that's absolutely right this
may sound like a rhetorical perhaps even
an exaggerated example but let me give
it to you it's a bit like saying
tens of thousands if not more indian men
are called nathuram
but in 1948 when natsuram god say killed
gandhi
if the parents of sons whose names were
natural suddenly decided i want to
change my son's name overnight it would
have been heart-wrenching
why is it not any different for the
centuries-old name of a city if you
change a city's name overnight or a
place's name overnight defying centuries
of traditional association it's
heart-wrenching
absolutely i mean you're quite right
there
you agree yes absolutely because you
know
it is
and then you are giving into a sentiment
that is completely reflexive and
unthinking you know you you you are
reacting in this you know
completely unjustified manner because uh
as you said the example you gave of
nathu
it's not just that that's one nathuram
and that's the nathuram that we are not
commemorating in fact absolutely but
there's a real danger that mr gupta will
run up against the feelings and
sentiments
and the associations and traditions of
ordinary people who live in these places
who don't want the name change they like
it they've grown up with it
yeah absolutely
he instead says
that these 40 villages should now be
renamed after people like rafi lata
milkha singh yaspal sarma and several
others but what connection do these
people have to delhi as far as i can
tell none if something is to be named
after them
it should be where they're born or where
they lived why delhi where they never
lived at all
that's very true and what happens is
that we often in fact forget the actual
people who are associated who
contributed to the city in many
different ways
so in fact we should be looking to
see who are the people
who deserve to be for instance you know
there are people of um
the 1857 revolt
against the british there are many who
are not commemorated in fact choose
their names yes choose their names uh uh
important uh teachers
you know uh who uh
advance the cause of education in the
city name them after those where are
those people indeed one of the world's
greatest poets in urdu was born and
lived in delhi named something after him
exactly and there are many many many
examples of this if you're really
stretched for rather than rafi and lata
galeb has a greater claim yes
let me put it like this there is a
sentence that narayani gupta gave me the
other day and i want to ask you if you
agree with it she says we are descending
into collective cretinism
uh as a historian i come upon this so
much because i've
half of the sort of claims and arguments
that are made are based on absolutely no
understanding of history or even a
desire to understand or to ask somebody
who might actually know like narayani
gupta you know ask her she's a historian
of the city ask her
but you know it's just just shooting
things off without any understanding so
that that unfortunately is also true
that we are we are we just don't care
about you know is this based on actual
knowledge or are we just so we're
behaving like cretins
and adish gupta has absolutely no
understanding of history whatsoever
unfortunately yes
but then how do we stop this because
this
desire this mission actually to change
names
seems to be happening all over the
country we've seen it happening in up
we've seen it in mughal sarai we've seen
it in allahabad it's now happening in
delhi
um again as
somebody who is a student of history i
would say
the only way that i can think of is i
just go and talk more and more about it
just just tell people why is it that
renaming is done why it is unjustified
why it is a silly thing to do
listen to reason and logic it seems to
me they don't they're impervious to it
they won't but hopefully a lot of people
who are divided about this or just don't
know enough about you know is this
slavery the kind of questions that we've
discussed just now
they don't know the nuances and they
probably don't you know so therefore
they don't understand it and are more uh
you know open to the kind of suggestions
that are being made in uh document life
but the problem is that there's a
sentiment behind this whole movement
according it broadly hindutva that's
pushing us to try and eliminate
eradicate forget our entire muslim
mughal sultanate history
how do we tackle that
more information i mean that's the only
thing i can think of just more
information keep putting more
information more arguments more informed
but from school books we are eradicating
phases couplets
has become even though it actually is an
indian language we now consider it
pakistani
we've handed over the language to
pakistan but it was born and grew up and
became a language in our country
yes it is so
you know we really are up against it
this is the danger we are up against it
do you think the people of these 40
villages should actually write a
petition to say
we love the name we're very happy with
it
that would be the ideal thing
it all depends on the extent to which
this kind of agenda and this kind of uh
thinking has been because people do get
persuaded
again
with a lack of information a lack of
understanding that is the danger yes you
can convince them somehow that even
though we're a majority we're being
treated like a minority we are victims
the others are the perpetrators of our
problems and therefore revenge change
the name is essential to restore our
dignity yes
it's a very sad situation we live and
you're a historian of delhi you love
this city you know all the associations
of all the names and here you are
able to tell the world that each of
these has a history sometimes unique
but if someone like a bjp president
wants to change it and an unthinking
mood develops around it it will happen
yes it will i mean look at what happened
to aurangzeb road it's so funny because
aurangzeb road was named by the british
it was not named by aurangzeb the
british were just enumerating the ruler
several of the rulers who had ruled from
delhi and when we changed aurangzeb road
we changed a little bit of that aspect
of
the our understanding of what british
rule how it operated also absolutely an
audrey shrushka's biographer aurangzeb
which actually tries to explain that he
wasn't quite the bigger the way in which
we perceive him and that though he may
have killed many people it wasn't done
for religious reasons but administrative
and government that book is trolled
extensively it's not read it's not
understood but it is trolled
so in a real sense actually
we are living in an age
where names will be changed
unthinkingly where cretinism is taking
over from a proper understanding of
history
yes
dr little thank you very much for what
is
an eye-opening interview for many but
actually one that leads to a very sad
conclusion there's not much we can do
thank you very much thank you to receive
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